Should the ref stop a player from fouling?

[noMoreSchon]

Here is a common sense rule: Never touch a moving ball unless it is your shot.

If you commit a foul, when the ball stops rolling, pick it up and give it to your opponent,

if it is being officiated by a referee, neither one should ever touch the cue ball. The ref

should be the only one to pick up the cue ball of the table, or in the return and hand it

to the player. Seems simple.

 

[jay helfert]

I'm just glad we've finally come of age and are playing "all ball fouls." Finally! Cue ball fouls only is a very amateur way to play professional pool and belongs in the backrooms from whence it came. I lobbied for "all ball fouls" for years, knowing that in the rest of the world (and all U.S. Straight Pool events) it has always been the standard. You wouldn't believe the opposition I got from some well known figures in the pool world, many of them telling me it was harder to call all ball fouls than cue ball fouls only. In truth calling all ball fouls takes a lot of questionable shots out of the game and is far easier to officiate than trying to distinguish what is and what's not a foul when using cue ball fouls only rules.

 

[Cracktherack]

If a ref called a foul on my opponent for picking up a rolling ball, I'd put it in position and just touch it with the cue to give it back.

 

[pt109]

I'm just glad we've finally come of age and are playing "all ball fouls." Finally! Cue ball fouls only is a very amateur way to play professional pool and belongs in the backrooms from whence it came. I lobbied for "all ball fouls" for years, knowing that in the rest of the world (and all U.S. Straight Pool events) it has always been the standard. You wouldn't believe the opposition I got from some well known figures in the pool world, many of them telling me it was harder to call all ball fouls than cue ball fouls only. In truth calling all ball fouls takes a lot of questionable shots out of the game and is far easier to officiate than trying to distinguish what is and what's not a foul when using cue ball fouls only rules.

I’d like to add something to that, Jay....
...I like playing all fouls...
...but ONLY WITH A REFEREE...
...some fouls a player can’t know he made...I don’t want my opponent calling those ones.

 

[ctyhntr]

What are your thoughts if the referee makes a mistake and it favors, or perceives to favor one player over another, or worse tilt the outcome? Two, maybe more mistakes during the US Open that were discussed here.

Absolutely not. They should be impartial to both parties and remain incognito until a foul has been committed.

 

[alstl]

Absolutely not. I remember a basketball game in which a Michigan player called a timeout when the team was out of timeouts and it cost Michigan the game. The official didn't just blow it off and let them keep playing.

That's why there are rules.

 

[Scratch85]

IMO, the ref's job is to make sure it is a fair contest as intended by the spirit of the rules.

In football, it would mean, do not allow a wide receiver to catch a ball out of bounds but give him a "foot" so he doesn't line up offsides. In basketball, it would mean, don't allow a player to take 4 steps with ball but tell a defender not to reach across the line during a throw in.

In pool, it would mean, don't tell a player that he is about to hit the wrong object ball but do tell a player to wait until you pick up the cue ball.

Just my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[Pidge]

What are your thoughts if the referee makes a mistake and it favors, or perceives to favor one player over another, or worse tilt the outcome? Two, maybe more mistakes during the US Open that were discussed here.

Can I get specifics to the instances you're mentioning? It's easy to put a big umbrella over all situations but some are more complex than others and each instance should be dealt with differently imo.

 

[ctyhntr]

These three have specifics.
Topic, Link, Summary

The ref for the Shaw vs Ko Match should never be allowed to ref a match ever again
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462479
Summary:
Shaw asked for a re-rack and referee granted it and also polished all the balls. When Ko asked for a re-rack, he was denied.


Did Ken Schuman Shortchange Ko in His Match Against Shaw?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462771
Summary
Ko Pin Chun was stopped from using a jump cue because he had more than 3 cues. Later it was cited this rule was not in effect for this year's tournament, and online references were out of date.


So... Billy Thorpe fouled right?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462563
Summary
Referee Ed Liddawi owned up and apologize for wrong call. Wrong call that knocked out Carlos Biado.

Can I get specifics to the instances you're mentioning? It's easy to put a big umbrella over all situations but some are more complex than others and each instance should be dealt with differently imo.

 

[Fenwick]

Good rule of thumb for all pool players - Don't pick up the cue ball until it stops rolling!

And there you have it. No catching even if the cue ball is headed for a pocket, about to scratch.
That's like calling a hitter in baseball out before a fly ball is caught. Just my take on things.

 

[Pidge]

These three have specifics.
Topic, Link, Summary

The ref for the Shaw vs Ko Match should never be allowed to ref a match ever again
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462479
Summary:
Shaw asked for a re-rack and referee granted it and also polished all the balls. When Ko asked for a re-rack, he was denied.


Did Ken Schuman Shortchange Ko in His Match Against Shaw?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462771
Summary
Ko Pin Chun was stopped from using a jump cue because he had more than 3 cues. Later it was cited this rule was not in effect for this year's tournament, and online references were out of date.


So... Billy Thorpe fouled right?
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462563
Summary
Referee Ed Liddawi owned up and apologize for wrong call. Wrong call that knocked out Carlos Biado.

The first instance is disgraceful. The same treatment should be given to both players either way. On a side note, I believe if the ref racks the ref racks. You shouldn't have players asking for a rerack or inspecting the rack.

The second instance seems to be a misunderstanding / the ref not doing their homework for the event. In which case if the ref feels more than 3 cues was in effect at the event he shouldn't stop a player. It is the players duty also to understand the rulings of an event. Once the shot has been taken then the ref can call a foul. Stopping a player taking a shot with a jump cue because they have 3 cues already in the bag is like telling a player his t-shirt is close to touching a ball.... Wait until a foul has been committed before making your presence known.

Wrong calls happen as in the third instance. Respect to the ref for coming out and owning up to his screw up. Many wouldn't,not just in pool. A wrong call doesn't really have anything to do with my initial statement though. I simply said refs should be incognito until they're needed. If the ref believes a foul has been committed then obviously they have to come out of incognito mode and say something. This is more to do with the standard of refereeing, to which I feel improvements need to be made and training provided.

 

[hang-the-9]

I think I remember that Mosconi incident. Didn't Neils toss the cue on the table in celebration and the ref damn near dove to move it before the ball hit it?:thumbup:

I think the ball did hit it, the cue rolled under the rail. There was another time I saw where the ref moved the cue out of the way for someone also that placed it on the table after the last shot before the cueball stopped moving.

 

[easy-e]

I think the ball did hit it, the cue rolled under the rail. There was another time I saw where the ref moved the cue out of the way for someone also that placed it on the table after the last shot before the cueball stopped moving.

We might be thinking of two different times. Here's the one I was thinking of, I remembered it being more dramatic, but this was what I was referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81n****VItw Watch at 32:30.

I'm sure there are other bigger examples out there.

 

[buckets]

If the ball is obviously coming to a stop and is not near any balls or a pocket, I see no harm. I know by the letter of the law it is a foul but Cmon....
I see many fans complain about not having shot clocks and then we want to bicker about a guy wanting to pick up a slow rolling cue ball which will save a couple seconds. We need to focus on true fouls and not worry about petty stuff like this.

I'm with you on that, but I'd never touch the cb in a money game or tournament game.

 

[hang-the-9]

We might be thinking of two different times. Here's the one I was thinking of, I remembered it being more dramatic, but this was what I was referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81n****VItw Watch at 32:30.

I'm sure there are other bigger examples out there.

Link no workee, said video not available.

 

[hang-the-9]

If the ball is obviously coming to a stop and is not near any balls or a pocket, I see no harm. I know by the letter of the law it is a foul but Cmon....
I see many fans complain about not having shot clocks and then we want to bicker about a guy wanting to pick up a slow rolling cue ball which will save a couple seconds. We need to focus on true fouls and not worry about petty stuff like this.

How about when the player warns the other player he is on 2 at the wrong time? The rule is that it is to be done when the incoming player is going to the table. Many players do it right after the player commits the second foul, but before they shoot to hook them again. Or when a player whiffs on a break, ignore that and give them a do-over like many do?

There can be many "secondary" fouls like this that are in the rules, can't ignore them all.

Or you end up with a-holes that ***** about it when you do call them out on a rule they did not follow. I saw a situation at the SBE tournament where someone actually threw food and a drink at a 60+ yr old guy and a woman because she pointed out the opponent did not say she was on 2 fouls at the right time. Which was in the rules.

 

[jay helfert]

How about when the player warns the other player he is on 2 at the wrong time? The rule is that it is to be done when the incoming player is going to the table. Many players do it right after the player commits the second foul, but before they shoot to hook them again. Or when a player whiffs on a break, ignore that and give them a do-over like many do?

There can be many "secondary" fouls like this that are in the rules, can't ignore them all.

Or you end up with a-holes that ***** about it when you do call them out on a rule they did not follow. I saw a situation at the SBE tournament where someone actually threw food and a drink at a 60+ yr old guy and a woman because she pointed out the opponent did not say she was on 2 fouls at the right time. Which was in the rules.

Bad rule imo. The way we always played it was that you had to warn the player he was on two, period. It could be immediately after he makes the second foul OR when he went back to the table. You didn't have to do it twice. That's for damn sure!

 

[hang-the-9]

Bad rule imo. The way we always played it was that you had to warn the player he was on two, period. It could be immediately after he makes the second foul OR when he went back to the table. You didn't have to do it twice. That's for damn sure!

You don't have to do it twice, but you have it to it when they are coming up for their turn before a possible 3rd foul, not right after they fouled a second time. When I foul a second time, you come up to the table and say you are on 2, then play a safe but say nothing, I would still be on 2 if I fouled again. I thought that rule has been in the books for a while as it's written now.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bad rule imo. The way we always played it was that you had to warn the player he was on two, period. It could be immediately after he makes the second foul OR when he went back to the table. You didn't have to do it twice. That's for damn sure!

The right way to do it is to have a scoreboard with a visible indicator of foul status so no warning is required. They had that at the American 14.1 Championship the week before in Richmond.