Ruling Question - Ball Dropping after 5-10 seconds

C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm sure this has been discussed and answered before, but this came up yesterday in one of our bigger tournaments. Playing 9-ball, player A pockets a ball and the CB is headed towards the corner pocket, but somehow stops right on the edge of the slate dropoff. I, as TD, happened to be watching it. The player looked at the ball in amazement that it hadn't dropped, and somewhere more than 5 seconds but less than 10 seconds later the CB dropped in the pocket. I was asked whether or not it was a foul?

I ruled that since the player was still looking at the ball and had not started addressing the ball for his next shot when the CB dropped, that it was a foul. Does the rulebook address the time frame as to a ball (CB or OB) dropping after hanging on the edge?

Did I make the correct call, and would it have made any difference if the player had already gotten down to address the ball for his next shot, even if it fell in after the same time lapse? Also, if he hadn't made a ball on the shot and had already left the table and player B had approached the table at the time the CB dropped, would that have made any difference as to the correct call? Lastly, would it have made any difference as to whether it was the CB or an OB that dropped after that time lapse? Thanks!
 
Tennesseejoe said:
5 second rule...If it falls before 5 seconds, it's down. If after 5 seconds, it's replaced.
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That's when it becomes questionable, as I really didn't know the time frame - likely just barely more than 5 seconds, but not by much. I guess what influenced my decision to call the foul was that instead of contemplating his next shot, the shooter was staring at the ball in disbelief that it hadn't dropped yet at the time that it fell, so it appeared to him (and me) it was inevitable that it was going to fall.
 
Honestly -- it sounds like you are trying to justify a poor decision. If nothing else you could have looked up the rule on the spot.

I can't remember for sure if the rule is 5 seconds or not but I'll take Tennesseejoe's word for it. Then a quick discussion with the players on how long they think the ball was hanging would have been worthwhile.

It sounds like the ball should have been replaced. I hope it didn't cost someone the match.
 
My question is, why are you referring a match when you don't even know the rules or how to easily find them?
 
Without a clock on the ball, as long as there was nothing else that may have affected it dropping, like people walking by, someone touching the table, etc... the call was neither wrong or right, it was judgement about the shot. Was if 5 seconds, was it 6, 7? No good way to know unless you were counting.

If I was there in your place, and the ball was up for more than several seconds I would have attributed the ball to vibrations of the table from the overall room even if no-one touched the table and would have placed the ball back where it was. 5 seconds is a pretty long time to sit there without falling for no reason if you stop and count it, if there was no motion in the ball from spin or moving forward, I would have to say it dropped due to external forces, so not a scratch.
 

WORLD STANDARDIZED RULES
3.31 - BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY

If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

The BCAPL rules add another piece of important information for referees...

BCAPL RULES
1-49.3 - BALLS SETTLING OR MOVING

If a ball is hanging on the lip of a pocket and falls into that pocket by itself after being stationary for five seconds or longer, it will be replaced as closely as possible to the position it was in prior to falling. The five-second count does not begin until all balls in play have stopped moving. Whether the shooter remains at the table does not affect the five-second period.
 
BasementDweller said:
Honestly -- it sounds like you are trying to justify a poor decision. If nothing else you could have looked up the rule on the spot.

I can't remember for sure if the rule is 5 seconds or not but I'll take Tennesseejoe's word for it. Then a quick discussion with the players on how long they think the ball was hanging would have been worthwhile.

It sounds like the ball should have been replaced. I hope it didn't cost someone the match.
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I did observe the remainder of the game, and I was relieved that my ruling did not cost him the game, at least directly. I can't remember who won that particular game, but that player had another turn or more at the table with shots, and he did end up winning that match.

As a TD, when you make a decision, you make the best decision you can, based on your observations and/or the description of the situation from both players, and you stick to that decision. If you get in to a conversation / argument with the player over the ruling at the time, in front of the rest of the players, it never ends well, and you lose the respect of all the other players as a TD.

If at a later time you do some research and realize you may have made the wrong call, at some point maybe the next time you see that player who questioned your decision, you discuss the situation with the player and admit you made the wrong call. Most players will respect you more for taking the time to discuss it and admit your mistake. Obviously you hope your mistake didn't cost that player too much, but sometimes it does, and life goes on.
 
Celophanewrap said:
What rules were you playing by?
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Our 9-ball tournament rules we use for our weekly 9-ball tournaments and our bigger Sunday 9-ball tournaments we hold 3-4 times a year. Basically Texas Express rules with a couple of alterations which I've decided make for a better tournament - 9-ball spotted when made on break, 9-ball must be called at all times, and one that rule that I think makes perfect sense but most people find very strange - if you call the 9-ball early during the game, regardless of whether you make another ball on the same shot you call and don't make the 9-ball you lose your turn AND your opponent has the option to pass the shot back to you if you happen get lucky and leave nothing. In my opinion, there has to be some price to pay from trying to play the 9-ball early and not making it, and I don't feel players should have it both ways.
 
Neil said:
My question is, why are you referring a match when you don't even know the rules or how to easily find them?
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There's a nasty question.;) In the OP's defense, I've seen refs/TDs in major pro tournaments -- think really big ones -- of whom the same question could be asked.
 
ChrisinNC said:
... Basically Texas Express rules ...
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The Texas Express organization disappeared a long time ago. I think that their rule set had several idiosyncratic items that no longer apply to most tournaments. I think you would be better off using either the BCAPL rule set or the World Standardized Rules as your starting point.
 
Neil said:
My question is, why are you referring a match when you don't even know the rules or how to easily find them?
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Quite simply - my poolroom, my tournament, my rules, my handicap rankings. If you don't like it you don't have to play.

Been doing it for 22 years and most all our players know that I'm fair and consistent with rulings and with handicap rankings of players, and that keeps them loyal and coming back.
 
As for where the 5-seconds came from.... I was asked to produce a set of rules for the men's pro tour back when there was such a thing in the US (1987). I edited a set of rules I had previously written around 1980 for a local tournament because the BCA rules at the time were, ummm, let's say "not useful" and not say what I really want to say about them.

The initial set had a "3-second" rule. Pat Fleming suggested that 5 seconds would be a better time to use as a fair number of balls might fall at 2.5 seconds and there could be an "earnest discussion" involved. At 4.5 seconds far fewer balls fall.

One way to handle the timing (if there is no video recording) is for someone to count the time out loud when the situation comes up. The ref, if any, should be counting to himself.
 
Neil said:
My question is, why are you referring a match when you don't even know the rules or how to easily find them?
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Must have missed my comments on some of the ref's at the US Open this past year......

Some of them legit didn't know what frozen was, when it came to racking. Let alone even coming on here to this forum to post a question about it.

I like the BCA rule 3.31 someone posted here about balls moving spontaneously. That makes me ask, if someone is touching the table, it is a foul then? Even if it may not have affected the ball dropping?
 
ChrisinNC,

You sound both very reasonable and very fair. I like your approach here as far as approaching players maybe next time you seen them and admitting a possible mistake. That's very admirable.
 
DelawareDogs said:
Must have missed my comments on some of the ref's at the US Open this past year......

Some of them legit didn't know what frozen was, when it came to racking. Let alone even coming on here to this forum to post a question about it.

I like the BCA rule 3.31 someone posted here about balls moving spontaneously. That makes me ask, if someone is touching the table, it is a foul then? Even if it may not have affected the ball dropping?
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If I saw a player nudge the table before the 5 second time passed, I would take that into account, if it was the shooter, it would stay down as a foul, if it was the opposing player doing it to make it fall, it would come up and I may give a warning unless I saw it was meant as a joke. If it was a neutral party say running by or walking heavily by he table, ball would come up.

Same thing if a ball was missed and the player hit his hand on the table in frustration and the ball then fell. As a ref in that situation I would declare that it was outside interference that caused the ball to drop and would restore it on the table.
 
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