A chink in the armor of Fargorate
- Thread starter JC
- Start date
Tucson’s post is spot on. As he said, when that 550 switches to a big table, he’s not able to keep up with a player of the same rating who normally plays on big tables.
I play on a 9’ table almost 100%. I would feel confident spotting someone (on any table) the same rating as me who only plays on a bar table. Because I know my ability will increase on his table and his will decrease on mine. I would be the fav on any table. But if they’re the same rating as me and play on 9’ tables, I would need to play them even. We would both increase ability on little table and play as normal on a big table.
JC
Coos Cues
It was when we started reporting our league results to Fargorate and our players became established that I started to understand better what skill set some of the lower numbers refer to. Prior to that all I could do was look at the higher rated players who have a ton of robustness due to the fact that pool is their life.
As far as I can tell you don't have enough games in the system to be able to make that judgement. So what is your fargo rating? That matters because without experience it seems hard for you to have insights based on anything but prejudices.
I do understand that the numbers are based on data of previous results so in that regard they have to be accurate. The 450 players did indeed lose 2 out of three to the 550s. Can't argue that.
JC
I think his conclusion--what you stated here--is spot on. His analysis not so much.
You would be making a mistake here. If you play 550 speed and exclusively on a 9-foot table, you are not actually a more skilled player than the 550 who plays exclusively on a bar table. If he jumped on your table, yes he would perform below 550 speed. Tucson suggests 30 points--I don't know that sounds about right. But if you jumped on his table, you also would play below 550 speed, by about the same amount.
In both cases, this is a familiarity issue. Both players are 550-speed, and both underperform on unfamiliar equipment... The underperforming speed--520 for the sake of argument--is not a real skill level. It is soft. If the player played every day for a month against good competition on the unfamiliar equipment, the player would jump up to near 550 speed.
The tournaments I play in don't report to Fargo so my rating is not only inaccurate, it's irrelevant to the conversation. I'm only one person... There's no prejudice at all. While my rating isn't established, a lot of others that I know from around the country are established. I understand how it works.
I very much disagree. The transition from a 7' to a 9' is much harder than 9' to 7' for a lower skilled player. For a higher skilled player, it's almost the opposite.
A lower skilled player, more often than not will struggle going to a large table because they're not an accurate shooter.
A higher skilled player, more often than not will struggle going to a smaller table because their cueball and speed is harder to control. But if you're a higher skilled player who plays a lot on bar tables, you'll probably play pretty sporty on a big table too because you have the skill and knowledge.
I couldnt agree more. They arent the same animal,but they are both animals. I went from no barbox play to 50% barbox. I def dropped to begin with. I still suck , just not sooooo bad
Everyone says big table requires more accuracy, that is true for pocketing balls,less true for position.
Big tables tend to be in better shape so that adds to the equation also.
That's fine.. But before you so quickly dismiss my claims, you should take note of a few facts..
--I have a pool room with 41 7-foot tables and 14 9-foot tables where people of all speeds match up all the time
--I have in the last 8 years run 1000 tournaments with over 400 of them on 9-foot tables--collecting data for all
--I have players of a range of speeds who play regularly on both size tables
--I have players of a range of speeds who play almost exclusively on one or the other.
--I have been interested in these issues for a long time
--I use data to answer little questions for myself every day, and my intuition is a reflection of this.
Mike, you know how I feel so not going down that road again but have a question a bit off topic but curious none the less. While I'm NOT a tournament guy, I have played in plenty. Not once have I ever been asked for a photo id. What keeps anyone from entering xxx tournament as Billy Bob Big Dick or whatever? Your system is only as good as the data input, and the data is only as good as it is accurate. I have no Fargo rating and this I am sure of. ( nor do I really want one lol, although I may decide otherwise in the near future but more on that later.
JC
Coos Cues
Fargo wise you are unknown so my point was that if and when that changes your perspective may also. It's not good, bad or ugly. It's just an observation.
IMO Fargorate is the best thing ever and the more data the better it's going to become. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it in a civil manner. Since nothing is perfect then discussing imperfections shouldn't be an emotional matter. Mike may think he's being attacked about it constantly and I can understand that. No one wants someone to imply their baby isn't beautiful.
JC
That's fair. You have a reason to believe what you do and I respect that. I still disagree... I would love if one day everyone had access to those numbers rather than just a number beside a name. I also wish the Predator pro-am tour reported results to Fargo so I could have a more established rating. I'll be relocating soon to a different part of the country, I hope they report to fargo there. I don't hate Fargo nearly as much as you think I do.
I really wish that tournaments like the BCAPL would lump everyone into one tournament and use fargo to properly handicap the races rather than dicing them into a bunch of different tournaments. The prize fund could be huge... could give 100k for first and anyone from pro to banger could win. If their rating updated instantly between matches, it would kill sandbaggers sneaking in and make for a very interesting tournament. This, in my opinion, could be the secret for making pool successful.
Last edited:
FargoRate
Cleary makes an interesting observation.....Fargo will allow some real creativity in how BCAPL runs their nationals. Women could play in same division as men. Divisions could be huge.
The players history will be able to see in newer updates.
FargoRate has the potential to change pool
Mark Griffin
Cleary makes an interesting observation.....Fargo will allow some real creativity in how BCAPL runs their nationals. Women could play in same division as men. Divisions could be huge.
The players history will be able to see in newer updates.
FargoRate has the potential to change pool
Mark Griffin
fargo
Ok here is my 2 cents and what i have seen of the fargo rating so far... This is the thing with me. I can only shoot in 2 tournaments a week that report to fargo. One of the tournaments I have to leave early every week so I play a match or two and go. The other tournament I usually win fairly easy. That being said the only reason I go to those tournaments is to have enough points to shoot in the state finals. I am a 529 fargo with only 414 robustness.. Everyone I play says I am grossly underrated. The last match I played was for the hot seat i played a player rated a 560 playing alternate break 9-ball I won the4 match 6-1 He says to someone after the match that I am sandbagging and shouldn't be allowed to play. My question is how do you account for matches forfeited or someone like me who has had to forfeit almost half of his matches?
Ok here is my 2 cents and what i have seen of the fargo rating so far... This is the thing with me. I can only shoot in 2 tournaments a week that report to fargo. One of the tournaments I have to leave early every week so I play a match or two and go. The other tournament I usually win fairly easy. That being said the only reason I go to those tournaments is to have enough points to shoot in the state finals. I am a 529 fargo with only 414 robustness.. Everyone I play says I am grossly underrated. The last match I played was for the hot seat i played a player rated a 560 playing alternate break 9-ball I won the4 match 6-1 He says to someone after the match that I am sandbagging and shouldn't be allowed to play. My question is how do you account for matches forfeited or someone like me who has had to forfeit almost half of his matches?
They can manually adjust your rating to match others in your skill level. You don't "HAVE" to play at your Fargo rating if it's wrong due to forfeits. It's pretty easy, find someone or a few someones you and they know you play about the same as, enter your rating as that. While you may not be sandbagging on purpose, having 2 losses every week that you don't play in but are recorded as looses ends up being just that.
You are raising the people that went by you in a forfeit unfairly, and you are lowing yourself. It ends up messing things up both ways, one person is ranked too high, and you are too low.
I think he means play in the tournament as a higher rating player. There is no mechanism to actually change the Fargo Rating.
Forfeits are fine. In some software this appears as FF or something. In others you have to enter a score of 0 to 0 and advance the correct player. There should not be games entered that were not actually played.
As Mike said, not in the system, but on paper at the event. If you know you play better than your rating for whatever reason, just pick a player you know you are about equal to and play as that handicap in the event. I do it quite a bit when I play in a place they don't know me, there is usually a player there that I know and I just go by that. If they are a 4 in that event, and I know I can beat them most of the time, I go in as a 5.
Sometimes you need to do that if the ratings are not quite right, I have seen "C" players in tournaments that are actually B level players, while I consider myself a B+ based on how well I can run out and knowledge level, if I see someone that is playing as a C that I know is even with me, I am telling them to put me in as a C.
JC
Coos Cues
You can't raise your own rating but it's easy to lower it.
All you have to do is own a business, have the whole week go south and show up on league night with no sleep and a distracted mind. Throw in a whiskey to ease your tension and viola! There's no limit to the low ranking player you can lose to then. Repeat as needed until your fargo levels off.
Later when you show up at a tournament well rested and skippy they wonder why you're not rated 25 points higher.
Another chink in the armor of the system. All matches played by the same player are not created equal. People who are jobless and play every night tend to be more predictable than the working class with many more physical and mental variables.
JC