A chink in the armor of Fargorate

[hang-the-9]

The room owner puts the score as me 0 and the person i would have played gets what they race to.. say i FF a match where the race would have been 6-6 he marks it as a 6 to 0 win for the other guy. I dropped from a little over a 600 to a 529 really fast..

There is the issue, the system thinks you lost 6-0. And yes a 600 to a 529 would make the rating way off. That is like dropping a full level. A 600 is about an A-, a low 500 is a B.

Till that is fixed, put in your old score before all the 0 scores were in. Mike may actually be able to manually fix you by going to your old matches and putting in 0s for the other score.

Odd that you were not manually adjusted already since it's pretty clear your rating is not equal to your skill.

 

[Joqpub4]

forfeits

As some one who enters scores through Challenge periodically... Mike hit the nail on the head, Enter the score as 0-0 and manually enter the winner... it was a bit of a pain to figure out the first time, but not that bad...

It is truly like any system, garbage in, garbage out...

But if scores are entered properly AND you get above the 200 game plateau, my observation is it is pretty close... not perfect, but pretty close...

but then again, we all don't play our best (or worst) all the time... we are human and our play has a range ... so this seems to create a nice average rating to get you in the ball park.

I will be much happier when they have the system that players can see their results to see what has gone in.

just my $0.02

 

[mikepage]

The room owner puts the score as me 0 and the person i would have played gets what they race to.. say i FF a match where the race would have been 6-6 he marks it as a 6 to 0 win for the other guy. I dropped from a little over a 600 to a 529 really fast..

Can you provide a link to the tournament bracket?

 

[bryanlee]

I tried to message you but it says your message box is full

 

[cleary]

Cleary makes an interesting observation.....Fargo will allow some real creativity in how BCAPL runs their nationals. Women could play in same division as men. Divisions could be huge.

The players history will be able to see in newer updates.

FargoRate has the potential to change pool

Mark Griffin

Yea, I mentioned that to you maybe 8 years ago and you dismissed it. But yes, men and women of all skill levels should be able to pay the same entry and play in the same tournament and within reason, have the same odds to win the tournament. Just need to handicap the matches. The prize fund could be massive. Imagine if some nobody C player from Iowa won 100k+ what that could do for next years turn out...

 

[Oze147]

I read through this thread and others concerning Fargorating and although I`m still a bit skeptical about it, I think it is an interesting project.
First because there is no such thing as a real international pool circuit and second because I like statistics, probabilities and predictions.

What I don´t get is why people use it for amateur tournaments and leagues.

If there is a tournament and I want to win it, I have to be good enough to do so. If I need a rating system to compete, it is an indicator that my game needs some improvement.
If I`m one of the best players in my area, I play state championships, if I`m winning, I`m send to the national championships and if I`m top notch there, I can try to play on the Eurotor or go to a World Championship etc.

Same goes for leagues. If my team is good enough to win the league or is maybe top three, I move up to the next higher league. If my team can`t win a game, we are obviously overestimating ourselves and we have to move down for the next season.

So yeah...it is interesting to fiddle around with such things when it comes to pro game and international comparability, but in my eyes it is a killer for amateur sport, because it discourages people from practicing and working for their goals and penalizes talent.

 

[hang-the-9]

I read through this thread and others concerning Fargorating and although I`m still a bit skeptical about it, I think it is an interesting project.
First because there is no such thing as a real international pool circuit and second because I like statistics, probabilities and predictions.

What I don´t get is why people use it for amateur tournaments and leagues.

If there is a tournament and I want to win it, I have to be good enough to do so. If I need a rating system to compete, it is an indicator that my game needs some improvement.
If I`m one of the best players in my area, I play state championships, if I`m winning, I`m send to the national championships and if I`m top notch there, I can try to play on the Eurotor or go to a World Championship etc.

Same goes for leagues. If my team is good enough to win the league or is maybe top three, I move up to the next higher league. If my team can`t win a game, we are obviously overestimating ourselves and we have to move down for the next season.

So yeah...it is interesting to fiddle around with such things when it comes to pro game and international comparability, but in my eyes it is a killer for amateur sport, because it discourages people from practicing and working for their goals and penalizes talent.

Well you found the issue with having handicapped leagues, but not why you would use something like the Fargo system to find out those handicaps. If you did not have handicaps in leagues and tournaments, there will be maybe 10% of the players you see now, at least in the US.

Usually when a player can't win and is a lower level player, instead of putting in more time or getting lessons to find out why they can't play well, they quit playing or find a place to play in with other bad players.

People do not say "I need to get better", they say "I need a bigger spot".

 

[Bob Jewett]

I read through this thread and others concerning Fargorating and although I`m still a bit skeptical about it, I think it is an interesting project.
First because there is no such thing as a real international pool circuit and second because I like statistics, probabilities and predictions.

What I don´t get is why people use it for amateur tournaments and leagues.

If there is a tournament and I want to win it, I have to be good enough to do so. If I need a rating system to compete, it is an indicator that my game needs some improvement.
If I`m one of the best players in my area, I play state championships, if I`m winning, I`m send to the national championships and if I`m top notch there, I can try to play on the Eurotor or go to a World Championship etc.

Same goes for leagues. If my team is good enough to win the league or is maybe top three, I move up to the next higher league. If my team can`t win a game, we are obviously overestimating ourselves and we have to move down for the next season.

So yeah...it is interesting to fiddle around with such things when it comes to pro game and international comparability, but in my eyes it is a killer for amateur sport, because it discourages people from practicing and working for their goals and penalizes talent.

Do you think that the FIDE rating system is useful for chess?

 

[skip100]

I read through this thread and others concerning Fargorating and although I`m still a bit skeptical about it, I think it is an interesting project.
First because there is no such thing as a real international pool circuit and second because I like statistics, probabilities and predictions.

What I don´t get is why people use it for amateur tournaments and leagues.

If there is a tournament and I want to win it, I have to be good enough to do so. If I need a rating system to compete, it is an indicator that my game needs some improvement.
If I`m one of the best players in my area, I play state championships, if I`m winning, I`m send to the national championships and if I`m top notch there, I can try to play on the Eurotor or go to a World Championship etc.

Same goes for leagues. If my team is good enough to win the league or is maybe top three, I move up to the next higher league. If my team can`t win a game, we are obviously overestimating ourselves and we have to move down for the next season.

So yeah...it is interesting to fiddle around with such things when it comes to pro game and international comparability, but in my eyes it is a killer for amateur sport, because it discourages people from practicing and working for their goals and penalizes talent.

Yeah, because those SL7 vs SL3 matchups would be so interesting without a handicap. I’m sure APA will get right on your plan of eliminating handicaps that are a “killer” for their business model. Once that happens enrollment will go through the roof

 

[Oze147]

Well you found the issue with having handicapped leagues, but not why you would use something like the Fargo system to find out those handicaps. If you did not have handicaps in leagues and tournaments, there will be maybe 10% of the players you see now, at least in the US.

Usually when a player can't win and is a lower level player, instead of putting in more time or getting lessons to find out why they can't play well, they quit playing or find a place to play in with other bad players.

People do not say "I need to get better", they say "I need a bigger spot".

I guess in the long run a handicap system has the same effect, because someday the good player has lost one match too much against a lower ranked player and quits or at least stops playing tournaments or leagues or, as you said, finds a place to play with other players of his caliber. Only difference is, that now the official leagues and tournaments are the place where all the "bad" players have stayed, which can`t be good for the development of a sport.
But yes, this is a problem with handicapped leagues and not Fargoratings per se, although I have the impression the problems with handicapped tournaments/leagues and Fargoratings somehow go hand in hand...at least mikepage has to defend himself against a pissed amateur every two weeks (which he does in a very patiently and respectful manner).

 

[Oze147]

Do you think that the FIDE rating system is useful for chess?

To be honest, I don`t play chess and therefore I don`t know how useful the rating system is.
I had a short read on Wikipedia about it and as always there are pros and cons, problems and advantages.
Do they use Elo system to play handicap tournaments?
But as said above, I admit my concerns might not root in Fargo, Elo or any other rating system but in the use for handicap tournaments/ leagues.

 

[Oze147]

Yeah, because those SL7 vs SL3 matchups would be so interesting without a handicap. I’m sure APA will get right on your plan of eliminating handicaps that are a “killer” for their business model. Once that happens enrollment will go through the roof

I guess I have a different access to "interesting" then...because I don`t get it for whom it will be interesting to beat someone just because he gets a spot, or why is it interesting to lose because of it.
And I don´t have a plan to eliminate handicaps or ruin someones business model.
The tournaments and leagues I play in aren`t handicapped, we don`t get participation medals and if I go out in the first round or run against an old veteran in a league match it is as it is. At the same time I have no bad feelings if I get an easy draw or a newcomer in my next league match.
And I didn`t say, that handicaps are a killer for someones business model, it is a killer for the sport, two different things.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...because I don`t get it for whom it will be interesting to beat someone just because he gets a spot, or why is it interesting to lose because of it.
...

I play in a weekly handicapped league. There are not enough players around to form divisions, so all 15 or so active players each has to play all the others even though the best player in the league is expected to score over four times the points the weakest player scores in an average match. There is that large a disparity in abilities.

With the spots, every match is competitive. I have to play above my average to win a match. If I play only my average game and my opponent plays above his average, I will lose. I think that's fair. Matches where one player is a 99.9% favorite are not interesting.

 

[hang-the-9]

I guess I have a different access to "interesting" then...because I don`t get it for whom it will be interesting to beat someone just because he gets a spot, or why is it interesting to lose because of it.
And I don´t have a plan to eliminate handicaps or ruin someones business model.
The tournaments and leagues I play in aren`t handicapped, we don`t get participation medals and if I go out in the first round or run against an old veteran in a league match it is as it is. At the same time I have no bad feelings if I get an easy draw or a newcomer in my next league match.
And I didn`t say, that handicaps are a killer for someones business model, it is a killer for the sport, two different things.

If you are talking about the national leagues not in the US, there is a pretty good standard model of pool there that is not in the US. Overseas there are many "leagues" that are not so much leagues as small training tournaments and lessons for those of similar levels. So you would have a C tour, a B tour and an A tour where the skill levels are pretty even or at least within something reasonable. In the US the national leagues are not like that and there is no set organization where you move up in rank.

Not only that, there is an issue with ego of players that get beat, a very small percentage will practice and try to get better when they lose. Most regular tournaments I play in have people drop out all the time when they start to see they can't beat players. Even if it's handicapped or cheap. One of mine was handicapped from 3 to 6, the 6s usually ended up winning anyway, soon half of the other players quit. Then we tried to do even races to 5, but entry fee was as low as $5 for lower players, basically you pay that money to get some practice and learn from the better players. Again we had very few lower players show up and two that did stopped coming after a few weeks. There is no dedication to getting better or learning. None of them have accepted FREE lessons from the good players, or take advantage of the free play time.

 

[bryanlee]

HT9 that sounds just like the tournaments we had here before I took a break.. 15-20 people would come shoot then after a few months it was 8-10 players because nobody would take the time to learn. I have offered so many lesser players lessons and met only with a cold shoulder. Most of them saying well on my good days or if I would have caught you in my prime! Yet they never win because they don't practice. I play 6-8 hours a day everyday.. When I was a teenager shooting in the junior nationals I shot over 10 hours every single day... Handicap no handicap it does not matter. The player who practices who truly wants to improve is the player who comes out on top.

 

[JB Cases]

Another one of Fargo's major flaws. The skill gap between a 450 and a 550 is rather large. The skill gap between a 550 and a 650 can be massive but the skill difference between a 650 and 750 is pretty small. Mostly mental and the 750 has a higher gear but the 650 can run a set out on a bar table. It's not linear. And the table size means A LOT. But whatever... I'm sure I'm wrong.

You're dead wrong. The gap between a 650 and 750 is EXACTLY the same as between 450 and 550.

You don't really understand how good a 750 is if you think that 650 speed is anywhere close.

If Mike opened up the database for you to run the numbers and you found out that it's exactly as he said it is I highly doubt that you would admit you are wrong. But you have no problem making an accusation of dishonesty.