Custom Cue Warranty ?

[Dave-Kat]

Custom Cue Craftsmen

How long do you warranty/stand behind ring pop, finish issues on your work if one of your Cues has NOT been obviously abused ?

Is there a respectable standard or rule of thumb within the industry? This goes for both small to larger Cues.

Thanks in advance for your time,

-Kat,

 

[Bumlak]

Custom Cue Craftsmen

How long do you warranty/stand behind ring pop, finish issues on your work if one of your Cues has NOT been obviously abused ?

Is there a respectable standard or rule of thumb within the industry? This goes for both small to larger Cues.

Thanks in advance for your time,

-Kat,

Ring pop....that's a tough question IMHO and here is why. How is one to prove "abuse?" (for or against?) If you leave the cue in the case in your trunk overnight and the temperature drops and causes the rings to shrink (blah blah blah kinetic energy....blah blah blah atoms take up less space....blah blah blah metal shrinks in cold.) Or take the reverse and go extreme heat.

Either way, at some point the rings WILL most likely pop and there isn't a DAMN THING that I can do as a maker to keep that from happening (except maybe to slightly undersize the rings I suppose,) IF you leave it in your car consistently. And how do I as a maker and you as a buyer come to an agreement on what happened or didn't happen? We can't. It could be a bad finish...it could be heat or cold. What I know is that it isn't was me sitting in my "cue lab" twirling my handlebar mustache saying "And then when they look at it funny....BOOM!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" I didn't do it on purpose and neither did you.

Now, here is the reality. I'm not in any way new to repair work but I am new-ish to cue making and can't afford to say "no I won't fix that" allot. If I built it and the rings popped, sure...I'll refinish THAT AREA of the cue for you. Are you getting a re-wrap and a Twinkie? Nope (unless it's the A-Joint.) Is that refinish of the ring area going to happen again? Nope.

"Warranty" and "Abuse" are dangerous terms. Bad repair people will use "abuse" against you (the customer) and customers will use "warranty" against us (the repair person/cue maker.)

 

[qbilder]

It's frustrating and easy to blame on abuse, but don't go down that road. We can't expect people to treat the cue like a new born baby. IMO, obvious abuse is when the cue or a component is broken or severely beat up, cracked, etc. Shy of that, the cue should be durable enough to endure climatic swings and normal wear.

Ring pop happens & isn't the end of the world. Use the opportunity to try figuring out ways to prevent it. What are all the possible causes? What methods can be used to avoid those causes? Could be as easy as changing the technique you use for polishing finish, not allowing the surface to get too hot. Or it may be something as easy as trying different glues that you use in rings, something not affected by heat maybe. Perhaps even a different install technique, not allowing the ring to be a structural piece or barrier between major components. There are lots of things to consider within your shop before upsetting somebody by questioning them about abuse. Even if it is their fault this time, it's worth your effort to see if you can prevent it in the future.

 

[Bumlak]

It's frustrating and easy to blame on abuse, but don't go down that road. We can't expect people to treat the cue like a new born baby. IMO, obvious abuse is when the cue or a component is broken or severely beat up, cracked, etc. Shy of that, the cue should be durable enough to endure climatic swings and normal wear.

Ring pop happens & isn't the end of the world. Use the opportunity to try figuring out ways to prevent it. What are all the possible causes? What methods can be used to avoid those causes? Could be as easy as changing the technique you use for polishing finish, not allowing the surface to get too hot. Or it may be something as easy as trying different glues that you use in rings, something not affected by heat maybe. Perhaps even a different install technique, not allowing the ring to be a structural piece or barrier between major components. There are lots of things to consider within your shop before upsetting somebody by questioning them about abuse. Even if it is their fault this time, it's worth your effort to see if you can prevent it in the future.

Valid points to be certain. One of the biggest learning curves for me has been and continues to be, the art of experimentation. It's odd since in my "real job," thinking outside the box is what it's all about. I'm sure it will come with time as far as finishing, glue types etc. As far as installation techniques on metal rings...you have my brain percolating again trying to figure out how with the exception of rings slid over a tenon you could do. You make me think too much Eric

 

[PRED]

3 year warranty= Deposit in full and cue will be finished inside of three years, give or take a year or two.

 

[Hinekanman]

Do the rings pop because the cue was made and finished too quickly? I assume thats why some cue makers take forever with a cue but im not really sure or understand why some things are done when cues are made.I figure if they have it longer and the rings pop they can sand it before there is finish on the cue.

 

[Bumlak]

Do the rings pop because the cue was made and finished too quickly? I assume thats why some cue makers take forever with a cue but im not really sure or understand why some things are done when cues are made.I figure if they have it longer and the rings pop they can sand it before there is finish on the cue.

Not typically. It could be installation method as Eric Crisp stated, the glue used (in my case I use West Systems Epoxy,) or temperature changes. The ring expands or contracts and simply pushes through the finish. I use a CA finish and take extremely exacting steps in doing it. I haven't had a ring pop yet, but Eric did bring up an interesting point regarding the polishing and how much heat it can create which I didn't ever put any thought into until he mentioned it. Heat would loosen the glue bond which would allow the ring to move more easily with expansion and contraction (just as you use heat to break the glue bond when you are extracting a bent joint pin.)

 

[Dave-Kat]

Thank you for your stand up response Eric.

So Eric honorably stands behind his craftsmanship and backs his Cue product. What would be a fair finish warranty time period on a Custom from a seasoned Cue maker 1 year - 3 years - 5 years - more ?

Thanks again for your responses,

-Kat,

It's frustrating and easy to blame on abuse, but don't go down that road. We can't expect people to treat the cue like a new born baby. IMO, obvious abuse is when the cue or a component is broken or severely beat up, cracked, etc. Shy of that, the cue should be durable enough to endure climatic swings and normal wear.

Ring pop happens & isn't the end of the world. Use the opportunity to try figuring out ways to prevent it. What are all the possible causes? What methods can be used to avoid those causes? Could be as easy as changing the technique you use for polishing finish, not allowing the surface to get too hot. Or it may be something as easy as trying different glues that you use in rings, something not affected by heat maybe. Perhaps even a different install technique, not allowing the ring to be a structural piece or barrier between major components. There are lots of things to consider within your shop before upsetting somebody by questioning them about abuse. Even if it is their fault this time, it's worth your effort to see if you can prevent it in the future.

 

[JC]

Thank you for your stand up response Eric.

So Eric honorably stands behind his craftsmanship and backs his Cue product. What would be a fair finish warranty time period on a Custom from a seasoned Cue maker 1 year - 3 years - 5 years - more ?

Thanks again for your responses,

-Kat,

If it flakes or peels I would take care of it forever. The last thing I want is my cue out there looking crappy because of something I had control over.

If it got scuffed or banged then that's a different story.

JC

 

[qbilder]

Do the rings pop because the cue was made and finished too quickly? I assume thats why some cue makers take forever with a cue but im not really sure or understand why some things are done when cues are made.I figure if they have it longer and the rings pop they can sand it before there is finish on the cue.

Rings pop because of expansion/contraction. It has very little if anything to do with how fast or slow the cue was made. In my experience, it's most prominent in situations where you have several different material types in tandem. Each material will expand/contract at different rates to different degrees for different reasons. Wood moves due to moisture change. Metal is impervious to moisture but moves with temperature change. Fiber moves with both, and plastic hardly moves at all. To make it even more tricky, rings are used between wood components that shrink/swell with climatic changes. I am constantly trying to find new, better ways to do things, but I have yet to find a sure fire prevention for ring pop except to not use rings at all.

 

[qbilder]

What would be a fair finish warranty time period on a Custom from a seasoned Cue maker 1 year - 3 years - 5 years - more ?

I'm not sure. I have never formally given one. Generally when people approach me with the issue, I just fix it no question no charge. It's an easy, quick fix. When I do the fix, I re-polish the entire cue again, making it shine bright like new. It always results in a very happy cue owner, which always leaves me looking good. Win win.

 

[KJ Cues]

Lifetime warranty on workmanship and materials.
Abuse is usually easily identified and normal wear/tear happens with age.

You have a limited warranty on the finish of your car; it's not forever.
In many cases, cues have the same finish. Cues generally fare better.
Each cue is different and each will lead a different life.
Each would be evaluated accordingly. I stand behind my work.

KJ

 

[JC]

Rings pop because of expansion/contraction. It has very little if anything to do with how fast or slow the cue was made. In my experience, it's most prominent in situations where you have several different material types in tandem. Each material will expand/contract at different rates to different degrees for different reasons. Wood moves due to moisture change. Metal is impervious to moisture but moves with temperature change. Fiber moves with both, and plastic hardly moves at all. To make it even more tricky, rings are used between wood components that shrink/swell with climatic changes. I am constantly trying to find new, better ways to do things, but I have yet to find a sure fire prevention for ring pop except to not use rings at all.

I always thought plastic rings would move like plastic water pipe. Ever watch a stretch of CPVC hot water pipe when you turn on the spigot and the pipe warms up?

JC

 

[qbilder]

I always thought plastic rings would move like plastic water pipe. Ever watch a stretch of CPVC hot water pipe when you turn on the spigot and the pipe warms up?

JC

I should clarify that I was thinking phenolics, melamine, juma, etc. when I mentioned plastics. I didn't know people use PVC rings, and personally don't have experience with it so I cannot comment on how it works as such.

 

[Dave-Kat]

Thank you Gentlemen for your respected feedback and comments. Owning my own business I always take care of customers/clients. Happy pleased customers are your best friend and are crucial to success....in most any business.

Best rolls,

-Kat,

 

[Paul Dayton]

Love the look but seldom use metal rings other thet at thejoint itself. I keesp the thickness of my rings ay .020to .oqo

 

[Bumlak]

Thank you for your stand up response Eric.

So Eric honorably stands behind his craftsmanship and backs his Cue product. What would be a fair finish warranty time period on a Custom from a seasoned Cue maker 1 year - 3 years - 5 years - more ?

Thanks again for your responses,

-Kat,

I don't think any of us would have a question regarding finish really. I haven't thought about a time frame and really don't intend to set one (at least at this point.)

I had a linen wrap come back the other day which I had put on. The customer tried to "make it even smoother" by sanding it and trying to hand press it with wax paper. The wrap fuzzed up of course. I replaced it no questions asked. Costs me what...$5 and 20 minutes? But...I did caution the customer not to do it again unless they wanted the same result and I would not replace it again free of charge in that circumstance. I think customer education has to be part of what we do at times whether in repair or building.

I know this. All of these makers who participate on the forum and that I have met in person make an outstanding product and stand behind it. They've openly shared their successes and failures and given the reasons why something failed and the steps to counter that issue in most cases.

 

[measureman]

Some of the rings on both my Lucasi and Downey are very slightly raised.
Doesn't bother me a bit.