SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball

Grilled Cheese said:
I also dislike rack-your-own. But were you around in the opponent racks days? I remember incessant arguments among most of the top players, including the more gentlemanly ones. Tournament directors couldn't deal with it anymore - and the scenes players would make was very negative for the sport and fans. Even at big events. The collective, sport-wide consensus and solution was a move to rack your own. When RYO become dominant, there was a higher rate of early accusations of players messing with the rack - to explain why someone lost, to blame, to shark or just be jerks. It went down quite a bit, but still pops up here and there. Compared to opponent racks, it is far, far less disruptive.

I can't imagine going back to the days of watching matches where 25% of the time spent is rack inspections and arguments and re-racks and complaints to TD's.

As for the reason why pool is in the gutter - that's a vast, vast topic. No way to simplify it or condense it, but if I had too - it's because there's just too many degenerates in pool.

Ideally, referee racking is best. But there's no bandwidth for that in the declined pool world today.
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I agree with everything you said except the line in red. Yes there were disruptions, but to me, the situation should have been addressed differently.

Back in highschool, I had a teacher with a line so good, that I still use it to this day.

"For every problem, there are multiple solutions. The best solution, is the one that causes the least amount of problems in return."

IMHO rules being changed to grease the squeaky wheel so to speak, created far more issues, than say telling players to act like a professional and display some sportsmanship. If they cant or wont, they dont have to be allowed entry to play that tournament.

If you take a little kid into a store, and they throw a tantrum because they want a toy or what have you; Do you take the child to the car and have a conversation about life and not always getting what you want? Or do you cave in and buy the child the toy just to shut them up? Again, both solutions can fix the problem. But one is far more likely to cause you headaches down the road. :thumbup:
 
It's just a change in era.

With opponent racks, it was the era of slug-artists. Some guys were masters of racking where you couldn't make a ball. With RYO, it is the opposite, rigging racks to make balls.
 
Grilled Cheese said:
It's just a change in era.

With opponent racks, it was the era of slug-artists. Some guys were masters of racking where you couldn't make a ball. With RYO, it is the opposite, rigging racks to make balls.
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Very sad, but true about it being the same shit, different year. :mad:

Again though, there were/are other, solutions (solutions that would not lead to the issues we are discussing, that have gone on for the last 20 whatever years) available to handle these situations.

Another example. A local weekly tournament. Say a player that shows up every week is an asshole. A real certified POS, who cheats and causes problems almost every week.

Should the tournament director ban this player from playing? Or should they try to appease the asshole, while the other regular players get mad and one by one stop showing up for the tournament? Ive seen this happen before, as Im sure you have too. I think most would agree, 86ing the asshole and moving on is the most productive solution.

Pro players are in it for the money. Take away that chance for a payday from the ones cheating etc, and the rest will soon fall in line IMO.

Its about professionalism, and not just on the players part. TDs need to step up to the plate when faced with issues like this. They have the choice of how to handle it. No other game/sport that Ive ever seen or heard of, lets people get away with overtly cheating without some form of consequence.
 
Most sports change rules to better their game and product.

The rack templates are the way of the future with rules for breaking. But they need to be consistent throughout tournaments. It sucks that each tournament director has different rules for breaking which leads to all these conflicts.

The game(s) really need one set of rules which can evolve as needed.
 
Solutions, solutions

Racking templates solutions are broken. All those templates have issues and you would need neutral ref to rack (like what Matchroom does in their events Mosconi Cup, WCOP) .
Those slamming 9 ball and calling for 10 ball as replacement - give me a break. After all the kumbaya hype around a decade ago of $100K 10 ball events blah blah blah , 10 ball never took off and is dead in water. Maybe audience prefer the luck element in 9 ball or that 10 ball is more boring? The dominant tournament rotation format now is still 9 ball. Period. 10 ball is like anal sex- only the pros practice it :)
I think going forward the better 9 ball solutions are those that have nothing to do with racking.
Here are solutions proposed in this thread :
1) I like solution by Prison Break's relative, Paul something: Breaker shoots after break (regardless whether a ball is potted).
2) I also like Bob's solution of push out after break which is variation to 1)
3) The throw balls from bucket solution while crazy sounds good at first . Until you figure with all these "mechanics/ manipulators", they will eventually come up with methodologies to throw balls from bucket to give good layout. Buckets will become Pool accessory.
4) Placing 1 ball in different positions of the rack still involves racking which these "rack mechanics" will eventually figure out so this is also out.
5) A modified contraption of Sardo that juggles all the balls , lifts them to certain height and drops it. Which means there is no such thing as breaker and the rack position rules will be modified that the 9 can be anywhere in the rack :) But this will be too costly so it is out.
6) My own favourite solution -After the break, regardless whether any ball is potted, the non-breaker takes the 1 ball and place it anywhere on the table and the breaker continues shooting. It will make it more difficult and interesting with lots safety positional play and no easy run outs.
 
spartan said:
Racking templates solutions are broken. All those templates have issues and you would need neutral ref to rack (like what Matchroom does in their events Mosconi Cup, WCOP) . ...
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Racking templates are not used in the Mosconi Cup or the World Cup of Pool (maybe you didn't mean that they are), but a ref does do the racking.
 
Racking templates are awful. Never liked them.

They just seem so wrong in principle. There shouldn't be anything out there on the cloth but the balls. These templates do get in the way and do alter ball paths.

Pool went from all fouls, to CB fouls only, to using these templates ...seems contradictory.

9ball has gone through how many breaking and racking changes in the last 35+ years to solve these issues? Many.

Let's see...

  • 9 racked on the spot
  • 2 ball must be in different position each rack. (no pattern racking)
  • 9 in bottom corners doesn't count
  • Break from the box.
  • Mandatory number of balls past the headstring (soft break era)
  • Alternate break

Just to name a few...

All methods used to thwart players who have found something consistent in the break. And because the break is so important, any consistency in it is a massive advantage.


The solution after all the above failed? 10-ball. Turned out, that was no solution at all.


14.1 is the solution.
 
Grilled Cheese said:
It's just a change in era.

With opponent racks, it was the era of slug-artists. Some guys were masters of racking where you couldn't make a ball. With RYO, it is the opposite, rigging racks to make balls.
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At the risk of being repetitive ~

Alternate break
Rig-rack your own as long as they fit inside triangle
Lag or coin-flip to determine who cheats first
 
Grilled Cheese said:
I also dislike rack-your-own. But were you around in the opponent racks days? I remember incessant arguments among most of the top players, including the more gentlemanly ones. Tournament directors couldn't deal with it anymore - and the scenes players would make was very negative for the sport and fans. Even at big events. The collective, sport-wide consensus and solution was a move to rack your own. When RYO become dominant, there was a higher rate of early accusations of players messing with the rack - to explain why someone lost, to blame, to shark or just be jerks. It went down quite a bit, but still pops up here and there. Compared to opponent racks, it is far, far less disruptive.

I can't imagine going back to the days of watching matches where 25% of the time spent is rack inspections and arguments and re-racks and complaints to TD's.

As for the reason why pool is in the gutter - that's a vast, vast topic. No way to simplify it or condense it, but if I had too - it's because there's just too many degenerates in pool.

Ideally, referee racking is best. But there's no bandwidth for that in the declined pool world today.
Click to expand...

It's simple, the TD/Ref racks the balls one time and that's the rack you get. The player can inspect the rack all they want on the shot clock...end of discussion.
 
Pangit said:
It's simple, the TD/Ref racks the balls one time and that's the rack you get. The player can inspect the rack all they want on the shot clock...end of discussion.
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Start and operate your own tournament. Let us know how it all works out.
 
Let's switch to where the cue ball must contact a rail before hitting any balls for a legal break. Then 3 months from now we will have to make it two rails because some pro's figured that one out.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
This month's Billiards Digest has a long article on the problem with the rack at nine ball. It includes several player interviews. I found what Darren Appleton said: "It is an American problem." In Europe they don't have any problem with cheating with the rack. Something to consider.
 
Bob Jewett said:
This month's Billiards Digest has a long article on the problem with the rack at nine ball. It includes several player interviews. I found what Darren Appleton said: "It is an American problem." In Europe they don't have any problem with cheating with the rack. Something to consider.
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How does that explain Jayson Shaw?

Of course if he's now an American let's put him on our Mosconi cup team... :thumbup:
 
skip100 said:
How does that explain Jayson Shaw?

Of course if he's now an American let's put him on our Mosconi cup team... :thumbup:
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Well, you could ask him, but my take on the situation is that he plays in two different situations. In Europe the rack and rules and the ethics of the players result in no problem with rack cheating. In the US he is confronted by worthless tournament management with rules that allow and maybe even encourage rack cheats, and sometimes he feels cheated and that makes him mad.
 
I doubt that's true

I have seen my share of racking issues over here in Europe, too. Maybe it is not so widespread because there are almost no money players around compared to the US. But I just had someone pull the pattern racking thing on me last week - rack for opponent. Well, I pretended not to notice and pattern racked against him also. Made it look like I didn't know what I was doing. I thought it would be better that a cheater would not realize I knew what he was doing - sort of 2 steps ahead vs. 1 step ahead.

I don't enjoy those situations but sometimes I decide to fight fire with fire.

I have also been given very loose racks in the past - so loose that it could not have been unintentional. Over and over again by relatively good players.

There may be fewer over here who know about the "racking secrets" but those in the know are even worse. They cheat players they know they'd beat anyway. I am probably one of the few who read all about the different rack cheats but there are many sub-pro level players who are victims of the rack artists. May be a difference in numbers vs. the US but it happens.
 
All of the rack manipulation information is kept very secret. If the rule makers understood how the rack was being manipulated then they would be able to define standards as to what dictates an acceptable rack. (i.e. certain balls need to be frozen)

Rack manipulation is super difficult and not understood by many. There are three key skills involved:
1. Understanding how different gaps affect the outcome.
2. Understanding how to freeze the balls that need to be frozen.
3. Understanding where to break from based on certain gaps.

Anyone can take a racking template and create gaps to prove a point but less than 1% of pool players can actually use a wooden rack to demonstrate the same outcomes on a consistent basis over many different tables.

I challenge anyone to read this article and use the information to consistently wire the wingball without a template. The information is far from complete...
 
FeelDaShot said:
All of the rack manipulation information is kept very secret. ...
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Well, no, not really:

CropperCapture[102].jpg

I guess you could say it was keep secret from those who do not read and will not watch DVDs.
 
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