Anyone who thinks that Shane just accepted that rack is a complete idiot. He knew exactly what he was doing with those racks. Even on the worst table, I could get a tighter rack with a triangle compared to what he did. This was completely done on purpose but most on this site hang off his nuts so they will defend him until the day they die.
SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball
- Thread starter sid98
- Start date
Did you try moving the rack up or down to change that?
Don't remember it was so long ago. May have to experiment with it again for s and g.
How about getting the fans involved. Be allowed to sign up to be an official racker. Take a short racking class to be certified. Then make the players be able to inspect, but no re racks. That would make the racks random.
In theory - yes. In practice - no. I know so many people who after decades of playing pool are not able to provide a halfways decent rack. At least not with a triangle.
And those people don't even intend to cheat, they just can't rack without some serious gaps.
Haha, it would have to be a serious fan to take that job. Then he accidentally lays down a slug rack and his favorite players calls him a retard!
Over and over
We beat this horse to death. Cheaters disgust me and any one caught intentionally cheating should be shown the door.
But, who is it that decides if some one is cheating in a pool tournament? I keep coming back to the tournament director and I believe they are ultimately responsible for that decision. Are there reasons they do not do this? I ask again, is this rack issue a problem in other countries? How do they handle it?
I like watching Shane play and I am a loyal American and he appears to be the only American that can compete against all of the top tier players from Europe and Asia. All of the Europeans and Pinoys appear to really band together and support their fellow countrymen.
America has little of that and when a big tournament is going on, Shane is our only hope at present.
But, if he is cheating, he will loose me as a fan. I also believe Dennis has influential friends on this forum and him and Shane have many fans here. Do they deserve our support as fans?
Hopefully every fan wants their player to be an honest and fair pool player. First and foremost that has to be a priority, if their player does not meet that standard then all of their victories and titles are stolen and they do not deserve support, or sponsorship, or being allowed to compete in tournaments.
So is Dr. Dave the final word on Shane and Dennis cheating when they rack the balls, or is it the tournament directors? Who is it?
We beat this horse to death. Cheaters disgust me and any one caught intentionally cheating should be shown the door.
But, who is it that decides if some one is cheating in a pool tournament? I keep coming back to the tournament director and I believe they are ultimately responsible for that decision. Are there reasons they do not do this? I ask again, is this rack issue a problem in other countries? How do they handle it?
I like watching Shane play and I am a loyal American and he appears to be the only American that can compete against all of the top tier players from Europe and Asia. All of the Europeans and Pinoys appear to really band together and support their fellow countrymen.
America has little of that and when a big tournament is going on, Shane is our only hope at present.
But, if he is cheating, he will loose me as a fan. I also believe Dennis has influential friends on this forum and him and Shane have many fans here. Do they deserve our support as fans?
Hopefully every fan wants their player to be an honest and fair pool player. First and foremost that has to be a priority, if their player does not meet that standard then all of their victories and titles are stolen and they do not deserve support, or sponsorship, or being allowed to compete in tournaments.
So is Dr. Dave the final word on Shane and Dennis cheating when they rack the balls, or is it the tournament directors? Who is it?
Haha, it would have to be a serious fan to take that job. Then he accidentally lays down a slug rack and his favorite players calls him a retard!
Lol there would so many " so and so pro player is a complete a hole" threads it would require it's own sub forum.
Very simple answer. The tournament director. I have played in the DCC 9 ball event many times and there is no rule about all 9 balls need to be frozen. Maybe if they used a racking template it would cut down on the time people take to make sure the rack is how they like it.
Wouldn't the WPA rules be applicable? Like Rule 2.2.
Looking at Jayson's picture, this would surely not be the case?
I think it was posted long ago on AZ...
We, the fans of the greatest game on Earth, need to chill the fric out!
Shane didn't break any rules and Shaw acted like an a$$. Every last one of you know damn well if you have an opportunity to gain an edge over your opponent legally, especially for money, you sure will. Couple guys were smart enough to figure it out and everyone else wasn't, it's that simple.
My opinions are basically like this:
rack you own sucks!
alternate break sucks!
Any other rule that encourages participation trophies, sucks too!
Go Earl, C'Mon Efren, Busty is the Man, and SVB just might be the best rotation player ever!
haha.
ok rant over.
Except this one;
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.
Does that change your opinion?
But the Dr Dave video shows that the wing ball goes, when breaking from the box, hitting it square, and the balls are frozen.
Shaws entire point of taking the photo and raking the rack was that, in his opinion, it was impossible to make the wing ball by breaking how Shane was breaking.
The Dr. Dave video proves that theory wrong. Wing ball can go, from side of the box, and hitting 1 ball square with a frozen rack.
All we have is one photo from one rack, that shows all outside balls frozen and some gaps in the middle. I noticed Shaw didn't take a photo of the re-rack, and Shane still broke and ran out. Was that rack frozen? We'll never know.
I'm a big fan of both players and this has turned into a great rivalry. Shane seems to have a little on Shaw as of late and I like the intensity.
Sounds like you haven't viewed Dr. Dave's correction video. See post #335 above.
Shane did not indicate in any way that he left spaces intentionally. You are putting words in his mouth.
I believe he said there is no rule that says all 9 balls have to be frozen. To me that means that if he racks the balls as tight as he can and is satisfied with the rack he has given himself, he is allowed to then break the balls.
The entire debate about cheating vs not cheating all hinges on whether this was intentional manipulation or simply a player breaking his best racks effectively. So to project that into his statement and then have others pile on saying that is cheating is really disappointing.
I don't think SVB cheats. I think he gives himself the best racks he can. Now, if he is aware of the z-track and so wouldn't accept one gap in the balls and would rerack, but would accept another gap in the balls that doesn't interfere with the z-pattern, that is possible. But that isn't intentionally creating defective racks that break easier. It's having a minimum standard of what he's willing to accept, and when he achieves that with the rack he breaks the balls. I feel that this is within tolerance because 1) there's nothing in the rules against it, 2) this is the universal approach I've seen from pool players, and 3) the tournament director certainly allowed it. Seems pretty clear to me that he wasn't out of line.
Now, if Jayson has some purist notion that rejecting racks with a broken z-track or not getting all 9 balls frozen is cheating, that's his opinion. He's entitled to his opinion. He can share his opinion on social media, make suggestions to the officials and offer constructive criticism, and he's welcome to run his own events as well. But when you show up at a tournament with the rules being as they are, and then you accuse one of the most stand up guys in pool of cheating because you have some minority opinion, then I feel it's out of line. Especially when it's done in a confrontational way, including scrambling the rack, taking pictures and bashing on social media, and premature resignation. Combined with his history of these types of explosion there is only one person that may lose a fan, and it is not SVB.
Not sure about the tilting aspect, because Jayson wasn't concerned with that. And Dr. Dave places gaps on the outside balls from the side he is breaking from. Jayson's photo shows all outside balls frozen, especially on the right side (our left) that Shane was breaking from. The gap in question that Jayson was most focused on was the left side of the 9 ball.
Not sure how that gap helps the wing ball go in. I was waiting for doctor Dave to set up the rack from the photo and break from the right side to see if he can make the wing ball.
Let's get warren commission on this here controversy! Also, in the match, does every wing ball go from every one of Shane's breaks? I thought I saw him miss it a twice and another ball went.
This would lead to more evidence that he wasn't utilizing a forgone cheat like the tilted rack which appears to not miss ever.
I still think Shane was just breaking like a boss that night and there was nothing anyone could do.
EDIT: I just watched more of Shane breaking from the match in question, and he clearly is breaking wider than doctor Dave in his video where The Doctor corrects his rack angle. I remember Shane saying when he breaks, if the balls dont react right, he changes the spot of his break to adjust. Maybe he just found that sweet spot on the table with the balls racked tight.
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That's why I said "all but admitted." He didn't say it specifically but strongly implied it.
It would have been easy for him to state clearly that he doesn't give himself gaps but didn't.
I don't support tarring and feathering the guy for it but it's obvious what's going on.
Charitably, it's stretching the rules. Uncharitably, it's cheating. There are good arguments for believing both of those options.
I always liked Shane a lot better than Shaw. Because he always behaved like a gentleman during tournaments.
Originally, I also believed that Shane's rack wasn't intentionally gapped.
However, after thinking about it some more and on top of that his Facebook post, I don't see it that way any more.
1) Shane is one of/the best breakers we know
2) Shane always meticulously places the balls and looks at them from all angles before he breaks; he even hand-rolls the 1 ball and others making it look like he takes extra care for a tight rack
3) Jayson's picture shows a terrible rack, one that even I would consider terrible with such an "extremely" large gap. Shane did not say the picture was doctored, AFAIK
4) The table was a first-rate Diamond table with new cloth, not some ole bar table
5) Shane posts on FB saying that gaps are allowed during that tournament. I doubt that. They may be tolerated simply because there is no referee for every table but I still think that all basic rules of 9-ball apply and rule 2.2 clearly states that the rack should be as tight as possible. Shane's rack is a far cry from that.
Do you honestly believe that:
A) Shane can't do a better job of racking the balls
B) Shane would not see such a large gap before he breaks
C) The table was so bad that the balls magically separated after Shane was happy with the rack
D) Shane doesn't know the rule which says that the rack should be as tight as possible
E) Shane's FB post was really more than a very lame excuse
All of this does not mean that I like Shaw any better now. His behavior in tournaments is substandard, to say the least. And he should have handled this situation in a different way. Still, IMHO they are both at fault.
Originally, I also believed that Shane's rack wasn't intentionally gapped.
However, after thinking about it some more and on top of that his Facebook post, I don't see it that way any more.
1) Shane is one of/the best breakers we know
2) Shane always meticulously places the balls and looks at them from all angles before he breaks; he even hand-rolls the 1 ball and others making it look like he takes extra care for a tight rack
3) Jayson's picture shows a terrible rack, one that even I would consider terrible with such an "extremely" large gap. Shane did not say the picture was doctored, AFAIK
4) The table was a first-rate Diamond table with new cloth, not some ole bar table
5) Shane posts on FB saying that gaps are allowed during that tournament. I doubt that. They may be tolerated simply because there is no referee for every table but I still think that all basic rules of 9-ball apply and rule 2.2 clearly states that the rack should be as tight as possible. Shane's rack is a far cry from that.
Do you honestly believe that:
A) Shane can't do a better job of racking the balls
B) Shane would not see such a large gap before he breaks
C) The table was so bad that the balls magically separated after Shane was happy with the rack
D) Shane doesn't know the rule which says that the rack should be as tight as possible
E) Shane's FB post was really more than a very lame excuse
All of this does not mean that I like Shaw any better now. His behavior in tournaments is substandard, to say the least. And he should have handled this situation in a different way. Still, IMHO they are both at fault.
We will need official confirmation on this, but I'm pretty sure those tables went from the diamond factory, to Turning Stone and played on for that tournament, then down to Derby, where they were played on for 10 days before that match.
That cloth is officially broken in (especially in the racking area) and the racks (with a plastic diamond triangle) will have gaps. Just how acceptable to the breaker are those gaps? How acceptable to the non breaker are those gaps?
Again, someone from the diamond set-up team could confirm but those tables were not fresh new before that Derby according to what I heard at Turning Stone.