Roll-out ( 2 fouls, ball in hand )

[Paul Schofield]

Push-out was another world. It required more of a player's best human attributes: intelligence, understanding, knowledge, ability, patience, and above everything, it required more effort. Compared to one-foul, push-out made Nine-Ball a completely different game. In tough, long, drawn out sessions, push-out becomes a war. I know this sounds schmaltzy: I think players acquired a mutual respect through this kind of play. The battle to get the shot to run out was brutally earned.

Think about this. Push-out also precipitates some discussion between the two players, something that no other game does in the same way.

 

[Michael Andros]

Push-out was another world. It required more of a player's best human attributes: intelligence, understanding, knowledge, ability, patience, and above everything, it required more effort. Compared to one-foul, push-out made Nine-Ball a completely different game. In tough, long, drawn out sessions, push-out becomes a war. I know this sounds schmaltzy: I think players acquired a mutual respect through this kind of play. The battle to get the shot to run out was brutally earned.

Think about this. Push-out also precipitates some discussion between the two players, something that no other game does in the same way.

Truer words never spoken.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Push-out was another world. It required more of a player's best human attributes: intelligence, understanding, knowledge, ability, patience, and above everything, it required more effort. Compared to one-foul, push-out made Nine-Ball a completely different game. In tough, long, drawn out sessions, push-out becomes a war. I know this sounds schmaltzy: I think players acquired a mutual respect through this kind of play. The battle to get the shot to run out was brutally earned.

Think about this. Push-out also precipitates some discussion between the two players, something that no other game does in the same way.

People who never played this way will never understand.

One-foul BIH has polluted the game into something totally different.

I used to be able to watch people play 9-ball for hours, but the new format bores me to death after a few games.

 

[Michael Andros]

People who never played this way will never understand.

One-foul BIH has polluted the game into something totally different.

I used to be able to watch people play 9-ball for hours, but the new format bores me to death after a few games.

As I've said before, why should someone ( me, for instance ) have to kick for the $$$ because their opponent played bad shape? It's ridiculous. That and everything else that comes with one foul.

 

[Black-Balled]

As I've said before, why should someone ( me, for instance ) have to kick for the $$$ because their opponent played bad shape? It's ridiculous. That and everything else that comes with one foul.

Sane reason you should have to kick because I played to make a shot and hide you from the on in case I miss: coz that's where the ball stopped.

Why dont you advocate a push option in 1p?

 

[jackpot]

so true

People who never played this way will never understand.

One-foul BIH has polluted the game into something totally different.

I used to be able to watch people play 9-ball for hours, but the new format bores me to death after a few games.

You would be hard pressed to find anyone that actually played both for a number of
years, that really prefer 1 foul. I remember before starting a match on a strange
table with a cue ball you weren't used to shooting a spot shot and drawing the ball
to the side rail for position on a ball on the end rail. You knew it would come up.
I remember watching Buddy once giving up the 7 to Dick Lane the tremendous
straight pool player. The 8 was a 6"to 8" from the corner pocket behind the line
The 9 was on the other end with the cb frozen to it and the end rail. No place to
roll out. We are all trying to figure out what he will do. He shoots the cb in the
pocket. Now the 8 spots and Dick has to shoot that shot I talked about earlier
to play position on the 9.He missed (Dick for what ever reason had a real hard
time drawing his ball).
The strategy was endless .
jack

. .

 

[Black-Balled]

That is 'better pool?!

Sounds kinda like the corner bar rules to me.

Only sillier thing would have been if incoming shooter had to kick the 8 in the kitchen.

You would be hard pressed to find anyone that actually played both for a number of
years, that really prefer 1 foul. I remember before starting a match on a strange
table with a cue ball you weren't used to shooting a spot shot and drawing the ball
to the side rail for position on a ball on the end rail. You knew it would come up.
I remember watching Buddy once giving up the 7 to Dick Lane the tremendous
straight pool player. The 8 was a 6"to 8" from the corner pocket behind the line
The 9 was on the other end with the cb frozen to it and the end rail. No place to
roll out. We are all trying to figure out what he will do. He shoots the cb in the
pocket. Now the 8 spots and Dick has to shoot that shot I talked about earlier
to play position on the 9.He missed (Dick for what ever reason had a real hard
time drawing his ball).
The strategy was endless .
jack

. .

 

[jay helfert]

Push-out was another world. It required more of a player's best human attributes: intelligence, understanding, knowledge, ability, patience, and above everything, it required more effort. Compared to one-foul, push-out made Nine-Ball a completely different game. In tough, long, drawn out sessions, push-out becomes a war. I know this sounds schmaltzy: I think players acquired a mutual respect through this kind of play. The battle to get the shot to run out was brutally earned.

Think about this. Push-out also precipitates some discussion between the two players, something that no other game does in the same way.

Well said Paul. Push Out 9-Ball was a far more cerebral game with a ton of strategy decisions to be made during the course of a match. If I knew my opponent didn't bank as good as me, I would roll out for bank shots. He was now faced with the decision whether to shoot the bank or pass the shot back to me and let me shoot it. Of course he could try to play some kind of safety but that was risky too. A similar strategy occurred between players when one guy cut the balls better than the other. I don't want to even begin to get into all the variances when balls came up on the spot. Remember, if a guy scratched and you had BIH behind the line, you could make him shoot again and he was on one foul!

The luck factor we see today was greatly reduced! The best player would win 90% of the time and that's being conservative. A common game (set) back then was Five Ahead for the $$. That was a long enough race for the superior player to take charge. I must have played five ahead for 50 a few hundred times in my life. Most of the time one set was all it would take to win the match. Rarely did someone go two sets unless it was really close and took a long time to end. But in the 60's a $50 dollar score was a nice win. :grin:

 

[Black-Balled]

Jay's / Jackpot's posts remind me of a shot/ move/ strategy that has been lost to time...

In the scenario jackpot laid out, except 9 is on spot. Since the 8 spots, we now have 2 balls spotted, 9 on spot and 8 below it.

With ball in paw, you bank the lower ball into to the side rail-hard- and send the ob to foot rail, so it comes back off the other side rail and 3rails back to the side you first shot it into.

Flat centerball hit on the cb has left it adhered to the spotted 9.

He is on 1 already, you'll recall.

 

[Michael Andros]

You would be hard pressed to find anyone that actually played both for a number of
years, that really prefer 1 foul. I remember before starting a match on a strange
table with a cue ball you weren't used to shooting a spot shot and drawing the ball
to the side rail for position on a ball on the end rail. You knew it would come up.
I remember watching Buddy once giving up the 7 to Dick Lane the tremendous
straight pool player. The 8 was a 6"to 8" from the corner pocket behind the line
The 9 was on the other end with the cb frozen to it and the end rail. No place to
roll out. We are all trying to figure out what he will do. He shoots the cb in the
pocket. Now the 8 spots and Dick has to shoot that shot I talked about earlier
to play position on the 9.He missed (Dick for what ever reason had a real hard
time drawing his ball).
The strategy was endless .
jack

. .

And, yeah... lemme know how it worked out for you trying to "out-think" Buddy playing RO. And, so, that's just one more thing I miss about it. Would the amount of moves in any given game compare to one hole? No, of course not. But there *were* moves in 9 ball. There was thinking. Strategy. Just doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Michael Andros]

Well said Paul. Push Out 9-Ball was a far more cerebral game with a ton of strategy decisions to be made during the course of a match. If I knew my opponent didn't bank as good as me, I would roll out for bank shots. He was now faced with the decision whether to shoot the bank or pass the shot back to me and let me shoot it. Of course he could try to play some kind of safety but that was risky too. A similar strategy occurred between players when one guy cut the balls better than the other. I don't want to even begin to get into all the variances when balls came up on the spot. Remember, if a guy scratched and you had BIH behind the line, you could make him shoot again and he was on one foul!

The luck factor we see today was greatly reduced! The best player would win 90% of the time and that's being conservative. A common game (set) back then was Five Ahead for the $$. That was a long enough race for the superior player to take charge. I must have played five ahead for 50 a few hundred times in my life. Most of the time one set was all it would take to win the match. Rarely did someone go two sets unless it was really close and took a long time to end. But in the 60's a $50 dollar score was a nice win. :grin:

Nobody ever plays 4 / 5 ahead in 9 ball anymore, Jay. Not around here, anyway. Sometimes in 1P, yeah... but not 9ball. Anyone can win a short race. But 5 ahead? Almost always the better player wins. So it was always much easier to adjust after someone won or lost say, 2 sets at 5 ahead. If someone got the last 2 or the break or whatever, at that point, you could pretty well bet it was needed/deserved. And the better player had a much better gauge on whether or not he could give it up.

 

[Black-Balled]

... there *were* moves in 9 ball. There was thinking. Strategy. Just doesn't exist anymore.

C'mon, Michael. That is at best, incorrect.

 

[Taxi]

Yep, my brain still works... 1990 Sands Regency Reno, Kim vs. Earl, they're playing the old 9 ball rules. Earl breaks, pockets 5 balls, but drives the CB off the table.
The result?
ALL 5 balls come back up on the spot, Kim has to shoot from the kitchen... he has to play a safety off the spot 'lineup'. Buddy on commentary talks about how that'll change if they adopt Texas Express rules. Ah, the good 'ol days, Jay!

That was one part of the extreme version of the two-foul rule that was stupid. Why should a player who scratches be essentially rewarded by his opponent's having to shoot more than one ball on a spot?

Spotting one ball, sure. And having to shoot from behind the break line, absolutely. But nobody ever thinks of a "spot shot" as shooting two or more frozen balls lined up in a row.

BITD the rule in DC was you'd spot two balls before the money, or in a ring game as many balls before the money as there were players in the game. IOW in a four man ring game, if someone scratched and made the 5 ball, that'd be spotted and the next player would shoot from behind the line. That placed spot shot shooting ability at a premium, but it didn't result in the next player being forced to try to luck a ball in from an entire string of frozen balls.

 

[Runner]

Different era

In the Earl vs Kim scenario I talked about, Earl fouled the CB off the table, 5 balls (!)
get spotted up. Kim gets no benefit from Earl's scratch, has to shoot at the string of balls from the kitchen, plays a safety off the one ball, sticks Earl behind the cluster.
3 foul forfeit still in effect. There WERE safety strategies involved...

Now, you'd have BIH with 4 balls on the table... outsville. TE was meant to speed up the game, and boy did it. Someone mentioned spot shots.. I remember Earl waaay
back, practicing that extreme draw spot shot.

It'd be interesting to see some of the younger players who grew up with fast TE
9 ball, play old school 9 ball rules... having to move vs just shooting and jumping

 

[Michael Andros]

That was one part of the extreme version of the two-foul rule that was stupid. Why should a player who scratches be essentially rewarded by his opponent's having to shoot more than one ball on a spot?

Spotting one ball, sure. And having to shoot from behind the break line, absolutely. But nobody ever thinks of a "spot shot" as shooting two or more frozen balls lined up in a row.

BITD the rule in DC was you'd spot two balls before the money, or in a ring game as many balls before the money as there were players in the game. IOW in a four man ring game, if someone scratched and made the 5 ball, that'd be spotted and the next player would shoot from behind the line. That placed spot shot shooting ability at a premium, but it didn't result in the next player being forced to try to luck a ball in from an entire string of frozen balls.

Played it plenty of times but always thought it was stupid for the same reason you listed. Normally, only the money spotted or the ball before the money and the money stayed where it was.

 

[Michael Andros]

In the Earl vs Kim scenario I talked about, Earl fouled the CB off the table, 5 balls (!)
get spotted up. Kim gets no benefit from Earl's scratch, has to shoot at the string of balls from the kitchen, plays a safety off the one ball, sticks Earl behind the cluster.
3 foul forfeit still in effect. There WERE safety strategies involved...

Now, you'd have BIH with 4 balls on the table... outsville. TE was meant to speed up the game, and boy did it. Someone mentioned spot shots.. I remember Earl waaay
back, practicing that extreme draw spot shot.

It'd be interesting to see some of the younger players who grew up with fast TE
9 ball, play old school 9 ball rules... having to move vs just shooting and jumping

I think most of them would like it for the same reasons we did.

 

[Black-Balled]

It'd be interesting to see some of the younger players who grew up with fast TE
9 ball, play old school 9 ball rules... having to move vs just shooting and jumping

Seriously? No moving under the current rule set?

Again...incorrect at best.

 

[Runner]

Seriously? No moving under the current rule set?

Again...incorrect at best.

Shoulda said "move MORE"... 'nuff said.

 

[Black-Balled]

Shoulda said "move MORE"... 'nuff said.

Agreed, but I'd think 'different' would be still more accurate.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I will add one more thing. As I understand it, the reason for going to One-Foul was to speed the game up. I think that One-Foul has evolved over time to where it actually may be slower than Push-Out. When One-Foul was introduced, the players slammed the shot with the hopes of the ball finding a pocket. Now with ducking on difficult shots, and playing safe rather than opting for low percentage position, and the kick-safe, One-Foul has slowed considerably.