Calling all pro speed players

overlord said:
I can't believe you are in the dark about this kind of stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

Some female US athletes had to give back medals because being on steroids.

In most sports now there is blood and urine tests administered.

Give a women testosterone and guess what, her performance goes up.
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Say whhaaat?
There’s no drug testing?
Steroids, test, beta blockers, adderall, film flams, and whiz bangs?


<<<< had no clue
 
jimmyg said:
Not to mention that this is also a very rare case...she is certainly the exception.

Anyone denying that men and women are generally genetically wired differently
each with different strengths, weaknesses, and inherent predispositions, is purely delusional.
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I agree 100% that men and women have a great deal of difference across all sorts of categories. I also agree that there are differences between individual women, and between individual men. SIming Chen is rare in so much as she is "the best". However she is not the least bit rare in regard to the fact that she is one of thousands or 10's of thousands of people who have won or lost racks against fargo rated opponents and received a rating accordingly.

WHY and HOW she came by that rating are completely irrelevant to fargo ratings. Fargo predicts performance in terms of liklihood of winning racks against a particular rating. The prediction is based on past performances against that rating and/or is extrapolated from other match ups. The sex, eye color, weight, bench press max number, competitive spirit, etc. all may have contributed to those performances one way or another, but are not predictive of those performances. Are you suggesting otherwise?

KMRUNOUT
 
boogeyman said:
I apologize, At large, if I presumed a point.
As I say, I want, and will match up with any female pro player because
I have all the confidence in the world that I can wear her down when taking
all intangibles into account.

Remember this, from a genetic perspective, men
have more testosterone, which makes us relatively more competitive (a.k.a hungrier, killer instinct) than women.
This makes a YUGE difference in sport.
And yes, I’ll play JB.
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What I think you fail to realize is this: I don't disagree with your last paragraph. I think for sure there are personality differences between men and women. However, those are not the only factors that contribute to a pool performance. In fact, I'd say those factors matter LESS when there is a vast difference in physical, technical skill.

The point is that while there may be differences between men and women, THE OUTCOME HAS BEEN MEASURED. In other words, regardless of what differences there are, or are not, Siming Chen HAS delivered the performances required to obtain a 790 rating. It may be the case that she would be an 830 if not limited by her "female qualities". It may also be the case that she would be a 720.

Are there differences between men and women? Yes obviously. Do these differences effect performances in a competitive setting? Almost certainly. How much do they matter? We have no clue. What we do know is that the 1000's of women in the fargo system, like the 1000's of men, did what they did.

Here's a good question for you: do you think Donny Mills has the "male" qualities you mention? Heart, drive, killer instinct, whatever? I would certainly say he does, and he also has a game that humiliates a mid 600 level players game. So he should have walked all over her, no? So if he couldn't get there with a world class game, what rational reason do you have for believing you will? Unless, of course, you think you play better than Donny? I'm sure that could be put to the test.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
What I think you fail to realize is this: I don't disagree with your last paragraph. I think for sure there are personality differences between men and women. However, those are not the only factors that contribute to a pool performance. In fact, I'd say those factors matter LESS when there is a vast difference in physical, technical skill.

The point is that while there may be differences between men and women, THE OUTCOME HAS BEEN MEASURED. In other words, regardless of what differences there are, or are not, Siming Chen HAS delivered the performances required to obtain a 790 rating. It may be the case that she would be an 830 if not limited by her "female qualities". It may also be the case that she would be a 720.

Are there differences between men and women? Yes obviously. Do these differences effect performances in a competitive setting? Almost certainly. How much do they matter? We have no clue. What we do know is that the 1000's of women in the fargo system, like the 1000's of men, did what they did.

Here's a good question for you: do you think Donny Mills has the "male" qualities you mention? Heart, drive, killer instinct, whatever? I would certainly say he does, and he also has a game that humiliates a mid 600 level players game. So he should have walked all over her, no? So if he couldn't get there with a world class game, what rational reason do you have for believing you will? Unless, of course, you think you play better than Donny? I'm sure that could be put to the test.

KMRUNOUT
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Yes, I do. I'm sure of it.
No, he should not have walked all over [Siming].

I want to be put to the test--as you say at the end of your post, KM.
If I'm going to test myself, I want to do it with the best female player in the world.
Not sure. Don't know the guy's game.
 
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Michael Andros said:
Man... listening to all this just reinforces the idea I've had for years now... pool has changed! Back in the day, if someone walked into our ( or any ) room and announced, "Yeah... I'm gonna play the best player in the country right here... tonight. For 2500.00. EVEN. We would all have said "Yeah? Cool... want some side?" The last thing anyone would've tried to do was bully or ridicule or verbally berate the guy for taking on "the impossible dream". Hell, we would've asked if he needed anything. A coke? A shot or two of JD? Clean socks? And we would also have told him his idea was the best idea we'd ever heard! "Well hell YEAH, you can win! Abso-f'ing-lutely! BET IT UP!"

Man... have things changed... Or is it just, me Jay? Am I just imagining this?
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I think part of this is that there are multiple issues going on here. On one hand, you have a guy looking for a game. Ok, seems fine. Next, you have a guy making claims about women vs men. Ok, seems interesting, although potentially sexist. I personally don't care about that...he can think what he wants and it doesn't bother me. However some may want to clarify or contend with some of his claims. That only seems natural. His implied claim is that fargo doesn't work properly. It should be obvious why Mike Page might have something to say about that, or anyone who wants to see fargo succeed. Correcting the erroneous assumptions about fargo seems like a reasonable thing to do.

If you view the corrections or contentions about fargo and/or male/female comparisons as being the same as knocking his attempt at action, then I think you have conflated some issues. As I see it: 1) I would love to see him play her 2) I have some respect for his willingness to step up. 3) I disagree with his assumptions about how fargo does or does not account for the differences between men and women.

I remember when the bartender (off duty) at the bar I played came over at the end of the night so drunk he could barely stand. He announced that he was the greatest anyone has ever seen, grabbed a cue, and fired in a couple of good shots. Then miscued and nearly fell. It was hilarious. I was quite interested to see what he would do. At the same time, I thought he was a drunk mess and would be unlikely to even *complete* a rack without falling over, never mind beat anyone. So while I totally supported his claims and offered no resistance to him showing what he had, I still thought his claim of being the best I ever saw to be dubious, and rightly so.

KMRUNOUT
 
jay helfert said:
Mike, he has revealed himself to me. For his own reasons he doesn't want to go public until a game has been made, and I fully understand that. Look Mike, here's a guy who wants to take the worst of it and bet $2,500! Who am I to stand in his way?

I've met a lot stranger people in poolrooms in my day that also liked to gamble and I was only too glad to accommodate them. Boogey doesn't bother me at all. I kind of like hearing all his boasting. What's not to like?
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Jay,

Do you think posting his current fargo rate would be ok? I don't think any number would reveal his identity. Just post the rating and the robustness, if you would.

KMRUNOUT
 
JC said:
You were on a roll until you threw in the race card at the end :nono:

JC
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It was an analogy. He was comparing making predictions based on race to making predictions based on sex. Mike didn't make either of those predictions.

KMRUNOUT
 
Meucciplayer said:
What I don't understand about this whole discussion: everyone has the right to waste their money, don't they? Some waste it on cars, some on shady women, some on expensive clothing and whatever. So why would they not be allowed to waste THEIR money on an apparently mismatched pool game?

How would this hurt pool? Who would care? I just remember Dippy Dave. The stiffing part was bad for pool but would him wasting money to play the "Greats" have hurt pool in any way? Who would even watch games like that apart from people who are into money games and pool anyway?

And no, I am not a money player. I played some many moons ago for small amounts. Today I don't think it is worth my time to play for more than a beer or table time. But I don't mind if others feel differently about it. Or if they consider a "lesson" by Efren or some other pro worth the money to play them. Who would have a business judging that?

On the plus side this may be entertainment for all who can watch it for free. It may also be a boring game where someone gets slaughtered. So what. My computer has an "off" button.
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Again, I don't think anyone is saying not to play the match. I think people are simply contesting some of the assumptions and claims the OP is making. People need to recognize that you can discuss a persons motivations and reasoning without directing them one way or the other what to do. Reading this entire thread, I really don't recall anyone saying "no, you should not play her". I recall lots of posts saying that a particular claim the OP made was nonsensical. People really need to discern the difference between those ideas a little better I think.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Jay,

Do you think posting his current fargo rate would be ok? I don't think any number would reveal his identity. Just post the rating and the robustness, if you would.

KMRUNOUT
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I'll take this one, Jay...

Hey, KM.

My Fargo rating is in the 600s. Is that good?
Heck, I don't know what that means.

I believe I have less than 5 games to show for it.
I don't get to play much.

Don't get me wrong though, I finally looked through the Fargo site.
Looks like a great system for the pool-playing industry.
Great job to whomever developed it.:thumbup:
 
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boogeyman said:
Yes, I do. I'm sure of it.
No, he should not have walked all over [Siming].

I want to be put to the test--as you say at the end of your post, KM.
If I'm going to test myself, I want to do it with the best female player in the world.
Not sure. Don't know the guy's game.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I respect your reply. Go for it! I hope it happens and good luck!

KMRUNOUT
 
boogeyman said:
I'll take this one, Jay...

Hey, KM.

My Fargo rating is in the 600s. Is that good?
Heck, I don't know what that means.

I believe I have less than 5 games to show for it.
I don't get to play much.

Don't get me wrong though, I finally looked through the Fargo site.
Looks like a great system for the pool-playing industry.
Great job to whomever developed it.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

So have you perhaps compared yourself to some other players? I'm at exactly 650 right now. When I look at other guys around me that I think I play even with, they fall in the 640-670 range. So even if I were not established, I could probably guess I play around 650 speed or so. Just wondering if you considered comparing yourself to people whose game you know well...in other words is that why you are estimating that you are mid 600's?

I agree with you, I think the Fargo system is a good one with great potential. Mike Page is the developer. He has posted several times in this thread.

Appreciate your reasonable responses!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
So have you perhaps compared yourself to some other players? I'm at exactly 650 right now. When I look at other guys around me that I think I play even with, they fall in the 640-670 range. So even if I were not established, I could probably guess I play around 650 speed or so. Just wondering if you considered comparing yourself to people whose game you know well...in other words is that why you are estimating that you are mid 600's?

I agree with you, I think the Fargo system is a good one with great potential. Mike Page is the developer. He has posted several times in this thread.

Appreciate your reasonable responses!

KMRUNOUT
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I'm totally green to the Fargo system.
I was given a rating by someone based on a contact sheet from years ago.

I have no idea who to compare myself to, I only know a few folks and don't know how they play at the moment.

Hey, maybe if and when this match goes down, someone can rate my play and get me at a proper baseline.
 
I'm tired of the BS and bickering from the peanut gallery about whether there should be a match..

It's time for a song by Marvin Gaye.

LETS GET IT ON

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBgnxDNdNmQ

I've been really tryin', baby
Tryin' to hold back this feeling for so long
And if you feel like I feel, baby
Then, c'mon, oh, c'mon
Let's get it on
Ah, baby, let's get it on
Let's love, baby
Let's get it on, sugar
Let's get it on

Don't you know how sweet and wonderful life can be
I'm asking you baby to get it on with me
I ain't gonna worry
I ain't gonna push, won't push you baby
So c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, baby
Stop beatin' 'round the bush
Let's get it on
Let's get it on
You know what I'm talkin' 'bout
C'mon, baby
Let your…
 
20 odd years ago I was at the Hollywood Athletic Club in Hollywood California when KD Lang the singer, her girlfriend and Martina Navratilova walked in. It was during the afternoon and the place was not busy yet, just regulars playing, the music was low. You could hear the balls as they found their way into the returns.

Regulars at the HAC were used to seeing " celebrities " as they saw a litany of them. It was a common occurrence. Folks that didn't play pool would just stroll through the place or have dinner and drinks because it was a pool palace.

Martina was wearing shorts and her legs were unlike anything I have ever seen on a normal female. They had massive arteries and veins protruding from a prodigious mass of muscles.

Her wrists, forearms and arms were really pumped. She stood right next to me for about five minutes. She looked like a race horse.

It has been highly rumored that she was on the juice. My point, is that competitive people male or female will do just about anything to win.

If you flew half way around the world to win 5-6th place and it pays a measly 5k you can see how important winning tournaments really is. Factor in meals and accommodations and you're left with cab fare.
 
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He must be a poor victim

Get_A_Grip said:
One way to look at this, is whether this type of match is good for pool or not.

Watching a low rated player donate his money to a much superior player, to me, isn't good for pool.

We've all seen this guy in the local pool room. Donating money to a guy he has no business playing. It can be uncomfortable to watch at times. And a few guys tell that dude on the side trying to help him, to save his money and play someone closer to his level.

How much was the price of admission to watch? Nothing ? Why did you watch ?
Why didn't these wonderful guys that are looking out for this poor guy just ask
his opponent if he minded if they tell him he should not be wasting his money
this way. He is obviously a victim and needs the help of the knock artists. Used
to be you took care of your own business you didn't need some pool detective
sticking their nose in your business whether you were robbing or getting robbed.
MYOFB stay out of the game.
jack
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Overlord p.e.d.’s and competition go together like fat kids and cake.
This is not a secret. Hell, if you tested your local symphony or chess team
you would find plenty.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
It was an analogy. He was comparing making predictions based on race to making predictions based on sex. Mike didn't make either of those predictions.

KMRUNOUT
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Make an analogy that doesn't involve race then.

I understand Fargo is Mike's baby and he considers this thread a direct affront to it but keep it real.

JC
 
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