Calling all pro speed players

[overlord]

Fact is, if he's gonna be dissuaded by people on AZ, he doesn't have the heart to play anyway.
You are seriously overreacting.
Jason

No he is not. Folk ought not step on people's action. Most players are not top pros and action is all they have.

In fact its down right underhanded. I've never had an ounce of respect for people that sh...t on other people's action.

Thank God I will never have a Fargo Rating.

 

[one stroke]

She's not a girl. She's a woman. I don't think you'd refer to the top male player as a "boy." I just don't get these rules with the button phrases and stuff like that.

The analogy made sense. The claim was essentially, Because I'm male and have testosterone, a female--any female--beating me at pool is inconceivable to me

It is hard to find a statement that matches the absurdity. It is so ridiculous that the insult isn'y even to females; it is to all thinking human beings.

No Jew is going to out-think me. No black is going to beat me at golf. No muslim is going to run faster than me. The analogy is about the vile absurdity involving a significant fraction of the world's population... These others are just as ridiculous...

However none of that is the same as gender , I'm sorry but there are some facts that do pertain to gender , I'm not baring a child tomorrow and a woman is not playing line backer for the Giants tomorrow or the next day for that matter ,, the debate is , does Fargo transcend gender by simple numbers in pool ,, you say it does it bared out in this case ,small sample size for sure but as it stands it did ,, we shall see how it does in the future , How ever they are cherry picking the matchups so it still will be tainted at the end of the day


1

 

[Dexter36]

Regarding the fargo rate, seems like there is a more factual way this can be assessed....

Supposedly, based on ones fargo rate we can roughly calculate what the spread should be in a particular match between two individuals, right? Or am I misunderstanding this part? I don’t have a rating, I’m one of those basement guys nobody knows.

Given this, why dont we set two players at each other who have clearly established rating with lots of games played, calculate the supposed advantage, use that as the betting line for even money, and then have odds at benchmarks that players can bet more bullish on going both ways from the rating.

So.. if player a is supposed to win 50 to 30, there would be increased odds returns than even money for people who bet player b to win say.. 35, 45, 50 games etc.

Each player is motivated to win every game they possibly can, even if they are losing bad.

After that, repeat the same process with new players another 5-10 games...

If the results continue hover around the betting line, it adds credence to fargo rate (which I think is neat).

The more sporatic the games are, perhaps the less impactful the projections are...

Even better, make betting on this sporty for the peanut gallery, stack up a bunch of matches.. men, women, everybody.. as long as their rating have clear gaps between them and they have a long history of established rating etc.

I’m sure mike can post a bunch of data on this, I’d be excited to look at it.. that being said, this could be entertaining to follow and bet on!?

 

[Dexter36]

Further.. additional wagers could be placed against the spread from the mean, effectively betting on neither play and vis a vis wagering for or against the fargo accuracy directly.

 

[jasonlaus]

We talk about wanting pool to move forward. And there are a lot of other things in the world that need to move forward as well.

This is the kind of sticky scum that works against all of it.

I want pool to move backwards - back to where it was on TV, back to where it was popular, and back to where every barbox in the country was a challenge table - $5 - $20 a game all night long. That is what pool really needs.
Jason

 

[overlord]

Is the fact that a woman has never worked on any of the myriad of cars I've owned: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that when I walk by construction sites and all I see is men: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that whenever I buy a new big screen and the techs come to set it up, they are all men: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that every person that ever worked on my computer was a man: is that gender bias? Well there was one woman.

The fact is there is the cable guy: is that gender bias?

When I worked on oil rigs as a kid I never saw a women out in the grease and drilling mud: is that gender bias?

I had my whole house repiped no chicks on the crew not one: is that gender bias?

Man I am trying to see this thing: help me out.

 

[Dexter36]

The gender side of this I am completely lost on... is the point supposed to be that women are not as good as men, or is this about the validity of fargo men vs fargo women. The first is circular nonsense to go on and on about , the second won’t be reflected in the match for the proposed participants as one of their ratings is basically non valid. *shrugs*

 

[jasonlaus]

No he is not. Folk ought not step on people's action. Most players are not top pros and action is all they have.

In fact its down right underhanded. I've never had an ounce of respect for people that sh...t on other people's action.

Thank God I will never have a Fargo Rating.

More overreacting.

You are aware that people tell other people they can't win so they can get in on the action too?

Maybe its guys like you trying to ruin our action.

If he had more $ to bet, I promise you I'd be trying to piss him off so bad he'd take another couple thousand on the side with me to shut me up. There's all kinds of ways to get in on the action - maybe you don't understand that.
Jason

 

[overlord]

More overreacting.

You are aware that people tell other people they can't win so they can get in on the action too?

Maybe its guys like you trying to ruin our action.

If he had more $ to bet, I promise you I'd be trying to piss him off so bad he'd take another couple thousand on the side with me to shut me up. There's all kinds of ways to get in on the action - maybe you don't understand that.
Jason

Dude my mind is so rattled with gender bias I can't think right now.

 

[jasonlaus]

Is the fact that a woman has never worked on any of the myriad of cars I've owned: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that when I walk by construction sites and all I see is men: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that whenever I buy a new big screen and the techs come to set it up, they are all men: is that gender bias?

Is the fact that every person that ever worked on my computer was a man: is that gender bias? Well there was one woman.

The fact is there is the cable guy: is that gender bias?

When I worked on oil rigs as a kid I never saw a women out in the grease and drilling mud: is that gender bias?

I had my whole house repiped no chicks on the crew not one: is that gender bias?

Man I am trying to see this thing: help me out.

Are you saying women can't do that work?

 

[jasonlaus]

Dude my mind is so rattled with gender bias I can't think right now.

Lol.
Jason

 

[SplicedPoints]

Dude. It's not a gender bias if you're not going around saying men is better than women just because they have a pair of nuts. Or in pool terms, men in mid-600s is better than a women at 790 because he's got a pair of nuts.

Dude my mind is so rattled with gender bias I can't think right now.

 

[jimmyg]

Dude. It's not a gender bias if you're not going around saying men is better than women just because they have a pair of nuts. Or in pool terms, men in mid-600s is better than a women at 790 because he's got a pair of nuts.

Effects of testosterone: "Testosterone plays a role in certain behaviors, including aggression and dominance. It also helps to spark competitiveness and boost self-esteem. Just as sexual activity can affect testosterone levels, taking part in competitive activities can cause a man’s testosterone levels to rise or fall. Low testosterone may result in a loss of confidence and lack of motivation. It can also lower a man’s ability to concentrate or cause feelings of sadness. Low testosterone can cause sleep disturbances and lack of energy."

 

[mikepage]

[...]

Even absent strength, which is an enormous factor in most sports, at some point during competitions, more so at the higher levels, skills and knowledge will take a backseat to determination, aggression, and will. Men, via testosterone, are genetically engineered to be dominate in those areas compared to women. With few exceptions that is a fact. Even in pool, where the factor of strength isn't nearly as important as with other sports one can see the usual differences in will and aggression, men are naturally much more intense in these areas. But again, there are always exceptions, perhaps she is one of them and I wish her luck.

I think we should take a step back, be a little more circumspect on these issues, and just let things play out. Here is why. No question there are real gender differences in many different directions. Strength and speed --notable difference. Drive and determination--what the psychologists are calling grit --steadfast focus on a longterm goal--seems to be more mixed. Some studies suggest slightly higher for women; others suggest men and women about equal. Aggression/short term stuff different story still.

Regardless, these things are subtle for something like pool. They are pretty much academic subjects that we normally wouldn't be talking about in a pool forum.

Take the height issue, for instance... Not a complex hormone issue, but easier to understand. If your hips bend below the height of the rail, that's an issue to overcome. If your torso and arms are not long enough to comfortably reach certain shots, that is an issue to overcome. But we don't tend to talk about how Filipinos are at a disadvantage for pool. We are well aware that social factors drown out that subtle physical stuff. But when it come to gender, those subtle sorts of things happen to play right into the hunches we've held for a long tome--the weaker sex.... incapable of grinding... will fold when the going gets tough... So we cite those subtle differences. I think it's a bad deal, intellectually bankrupt.

So long as nearly every high-level female player "just happened" to grow up around the game -- in a pool hall or bar or the child of a player, then he have to acknowledge that female pool is horribly underdeveloped. Pretty much out of every 10,000 females, 9,999 never have association with the game. And the best female players we have come from the best out of those one hundredth of one percent.

So yes, we should ignore those so-called "innate" differences for now. If they're real, they won't be going anywhere--just like the height problem the Filipinos have isn't going anywhere.

 

[one stroke]

Effects of testosterone: "Testosterone plays a role in certain behaviors, including aggression and dominance. It also helps to spark competitiveness and boost self-esteem. Just as sexual activity can affect testosterone levels, taking part in competitive activities can cause a man’s testosterone levels to rise or fall. Low testosterone may result in a loss of confidence and lack of motivation. It can also lower a man’s ability to concentrate or cause feelings of sadness. Low testosterone can cause sleep disturbances and lack of energy."

The real fact is everyone is barking up the wrong tree Adderall would be the best use for pool players not steroids ,, it is conciderd a PED however,

1

 

[mikepage]

Is the fact that a woman has never worked on any of the myriad of cars I've owned: is that gender bias?

No that's an observation

Is the fact that when I walk by construction sites and all I see is men: is that gender bias?

No that's an observation

Is the fact that whenever I buy a new big screen and the techs come to set it up, they are all men: is that gender bias?

No that's an observation

Is the fact that every person that ever worked on my computer was a man: is that gender bias? Well there was one woman.

No that's an observation

The fact is there is the cable guy: is that gender bias?

This one is different. A phrase like this is created after lots of people have observations like the others you've mentioned. But here is the problem. Creating a phrase like this cements those observations into a THING. Without the phrase, your viewpoint can more readily evolve if you started to see more car-repair or computer-repair people being women. But the phrases tend to make the earlier observations more resilient. This is a valid objection to genderizing something that doesn't need to be genderized. I wish people would try to understand this rather than calling someone who points it out "offended," whatever that means.

When I worked on oil rigs as a kid I never saw a women out in the grease and drilling mud: is that gender bias?

Nope; back to an observation.

I had my whole house repiped no chicks on the crew not one: is that gender bias?

ditto

Man I am trying to see this thing: help me out.

I think it is subtle stuff, but I think it is REALLY worth thinking about in an honest way. One thing that would help I think is to assess comments for their content rather than assigning them to a bucket.

 

[Oze147]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole discussion gets a bit ridiculous?
First of all I don`t know why people think that Chen is the new messiah of pool and her playing male players could give pool a much needed push. In the end its all about two people playing uninterestingly long races of pool, on an internet livestream with more or less poor quality, inside a dark, noisy and smoky pool room and to top it, there is some gambling an betting involved.
Thats exactly the image you want to transport to the public...which you don`t transport anyway, because nobody outside the pool world cares about.

Second, there is another big discussion about fargorate, which might be interesting when it comes to US amateur players, since they use it for some sort of handicap system, but is pretty...useless (might sound a hard, I know)...when it comes to international pro players. Very few players outside the US care or even know about Fargo and if you look at the yearly MC results or any other international results of US players except Shane, you might get an idea why this Fargo lists make non US players giggle.

Third, and this might be the strangest part of this thread, people start debating who or who not Chen is allowed to play. Which solely is her decision. If she feels like challenging herself, she can play the top ten US pros, if she wants the easy money, she can play amateurs every day for the next six month, if she wants, she can give out free hugs in front of pool halls all over America (which probably would get pool more attention).

Anyway, sooner or later Chen will be going back to China and will play women`s tournaments, with good prize money, with TV coverage, with sponsorship deals, with proper referees and perfect equipment.
Wondering why all those Americans wanted to hand over their money to her, thinking about why they are so obsessed about this fargosomething and maybe if this cute American, who tried so hard to beat her in 10ball, ever calls her back.

 

[mikepage]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole discussion gets a bit ridiculous?

Likely not.

First of all I don`t know why people think that Chen is the new messiah of pool and her playing male players could give pool a much needed push. In the end its all about two people playing uninterestingly long races of pool, on an internet livestream with more or less poor quality, inside a dark, noisy and smoky pool room and to top it, there is some gambling an betting involved.
Thats exactly the image you want to transport to the public...which you don`t transport anyway, because nobody outside the pool world cares about.

I think you are saying this is not the mechanism to expand pool to new people. I agree with that. So we're really talking about getting the blood flowing for people who are already interested, i.e., for us.

But there I think the interest is pretty high. There are views held pretty strongly by different knowledgable people that are pretty different. You would not find a wide difference for "How do SVB and John Morra match up." But for SVB and Han Yu or Siming Chen, the differences will be pretty big. And that creates drama.

Second, there is another big discussion about fargorate, which might be interesting when it comes to US amateur players, since they use it for some sort of handicap system, but is pretty...useless (might sound a hard, I know)...when it comes to international pro players. Very few players outside the US care or even know about Fargo and if you look at the yearly MC results or any other international results of US players except Shane, you might get an idea why this Fargo lists make non US players giggle.

Actually FargoRate works pretty well for amateurs. But where we really shine is for pros worldwide. I believe pool now has the most sophisticated rating system of any interactive sport. And within 6 months or a year, we will beat out chess as the largest database.

I'm not sure what you mean about the performance of US players giving an idea of why non-US players giggle. Do you mean the fact that someone like Justin Bergman, who more or less doesn't travel, being rated similar to Albin Ouschan, who travels and has won world 9-Ball? If so, then that is on them. The sophisticated among them will not giggle. And the others will come around. [/quote]

Third, and this might be the strangest part of this thread, people start debating who or who not Chen is allowed to play. Which solely is her decision. [...]

I think you are making this up. I haven't seen anybody suggest we are talking about who Siming is allowed to play.

[...] and maybe if this cute American, who tried so hard to beat her in 10ball, ever calls her back.

Hear that Donny? Oze147 thinks you're cute...

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Make an analogy that doesn't involve race then.



I understand Fargo is Mike's baby and he considers this thread a direct affront to it but keep it real.



JC

I think the analogy was apt. So sexism as an example is ok, but race as a similar example is not ok? Is that what you're getting at? You do
understand that both the sexism and racism
was portrayed as *bad* by Mike, right?

What analogy would you use regarding making assumptions based on sex? Making assumptions based on____________?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Sounds to me like you are ignorant of the history. Furthermore I am souring on your whole rating system.



Why don't you mind your own business and let folk do what they are inclined to do.

It seems like Mike is a member of "folk" and is doing what he is inclined to do. Sooo....um...

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums