Breaking

C

Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play in local 8-ball tournaments. I win the lag about 80% of the time, I'm good at it. And sometimes I ask my opponent to break. They are usually surprised, some didn't even know that was possible.

But think about it. Stats are published on here regularly, and on average the pros make balls on the break around 60% of the time if even. From my observation the average player has a below 50% success rate. Add to that that sometimes you will scratch on the break. Add to that that sometimes you don't have a ball to shoot after a successful break. When you put these together, it seems that you are better off letting your oponent break as often as possible?

Julian
 
I am fine with my 8 ball break whether it be open table or take what you make.

My 9 ball break is a different story. I find my self winning more racks off my opponents break than I do my own. I have a tendency to either break dry and my opponent has a field day running the table or I make a ball and hooked in the next one.
 
Catalin said:
I play in local 8-ball tournaments. I win the lag about 80% of the time, I'm good at it. And sometimes I ask my opponent to break. They are usually surprised, some didn't even know that was possible.

But think about it. Stats are published on here regularly, and on average the pros make balls on the break around 60% of the time if even. From my observation the average player has a below 50% success rate. Add to that that sometimes you will scratch on the break. Add to that that sometimes you don't have a ball to shoot after a successful break. When you put these together, it seems that you are better off letting your oponent break as often as possible?

Julian
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You're missing one very important stat in your observation. What percentage does the breaker win the game?
 
you need to work on your eight ball break. I want control of the table. If I am assuming my opponent is not going to be successful on the break I am also likely to assume that their break is going to leave tough tables to negotiate. If I also don't think my opponent is going to get out of a table even when they have a successful break, then I know I have room to play safety if I need to. When I break I am more than 50% to make a ball and I almost always break wide open, meaning not a lot of clusters to break out. That also means a dry break is likely a loss. I would rather take my chances to control my own fate, but whatever works for you.
 
Catalin said:
I play in local 8-ball tournaments. I win the lag about 80% of the time, I'm good at it. And sometimes I ask my opponent to break. They are usually surprised, some didn't even know that was possible.

But think about it. Stats are published on here regularly, and on average the pros make balls on the break around 60% of the time if even. From my observation the average player has a below 50% success rate. Add to that that sometimes you will scratch on the break. Add to that that sometimes you don't have a ball to shoot after a successful break. When you put these together, it seems that you are better off letting your oponent break as often as possible?

Julian
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If I'm playing a player that plays even with me, I will in NO WAY give the break away.

You give the break up and you may lose 2 or 3 racks before you shoot again.

NEVER!!!

Rake
 
jimmyco said:
You're missing one very important stat in your observation. What percentage does the breaker win the game?
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I'm focusing on average players here, not pros. At this level break and runs don't happen that often.

Julian
 
Catalin said:
I'm focusing on average players here, not pros. At this level break and runs don't happen that often.

Julian
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It does not take a pro to break and run 1, 2 or even three racks.

I understand what your getting at. Most bca/a pa league player I know seldom run more than 1 rack at a time but, ever now and then one of them will string 2 or 3 together.

You just never know so, why take the chance if it matters.

Like someone said, you need to work on your break.

If you can't make a ball with control then resort to a safe break.

Rake
 
Catalin said:
I'm focusing on average players here, not pros. At this level break and runs don't happen that often.

Julian
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Changing your strategy based on your opponents skill level is a good way to go IMO.

Im a 9 ball guy primarily. If Im playing good, I feel that I should get out of most open racks, and a good percentage of those that only require minor manipulation to open up.

If Im not playing good on a particular day, I do the same type of strategy adjustment.

If Im playing a stronger player, I focus more on safety play and trying to get ball in hand as often as possible. If Im playing a weaker player, one that can only run 3-5 balls regularly, doesnt have a good safety game etc, I might let them run some balls early in the rack on the premise that Im likely to get back to the table on a miss, and win the game from there. Nothing is set in stone, if you find a strategy as such that is helping you win, stick with it.

Knowing how to win, includes more than just knowing how to run out. ;)
 
Catalin said:
I play in local 8-ball tournaments. I win the lag about 80% of the time, I'm good at it. And sometimes I ask my opponent to break. They are usually surprised, some didn't even know that was possible.

But think about it. Stats are published on here regularly, and on average the pros make balls on the break around 60% of the time if even. From my observation the average player has a below 50% success rate. Add to that that sometimes you will scratch on the break. Add to that that sometimes you don't have a ball to shoot after a successful break. When you put these together, it seems that you are better off letting your oponent break as often as possible?

Julian
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If i ever get to your part of the world will you play me 8ball for some serious cash giving me breaks?:D
 
marek said:
If i ever get to your part of the world will you play me 8ball for some serious cash giving me breaks?:D
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Marek bro, you ARE a pro so that doesn't apply. That being said, if you make it to Switzerland or I to Poland I would pay to have lessons with you!

Julian
 
Catalin said:
Marek bro, you ARE a pro so that doesn't apply. That being said, if you make it to Switzerland or I to Poland I would pay to have lessons with you!

Julian
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I am no pro Julian,i have my daily job and pool is just my hobby :) But i will give you a free advice: learn how to break good=precise then choose better positioned balls and THAT will raise your winning % considerably without giving up the breaks to your opponents. By just choosing better positioned group of balls you will win vast majority of games against league opponents ;)
 
I went through this myself. I would second-ball break, hoping a little for 8 on the break, but mostly so I'd leave clusters, more difficult for my opponents to get out. But this approach had it's roots in lack of confidence in my game. Once I realized this, I became disgusted that this was how I was setting out on a night - to prevent my opponent's roll, rather than encourage mine. So I set out to:

(a) Become better at breakouts. When I played good players, they were at least as good at them than I was, usually better. So the above approach often ended up hurting me more than them.

(b) Break to run out. Initially, I had poor percentage making a ball on the break, and that would sting when the good opponent would run out that open table. Or didn't, but plays a good safety, then ends up getting out anyway.

Breaking to run out is riskier, sure. But it drove me to be a better player overall. To put the focus on, and trust in, myself, instead of what my opponents could or couldn't do. Taking me further towards another, larger goal: "the opponent doesn't matter, if I don't let them to the table." Or, "play the table" or whatever adage you like best. Besides, It's a lot less to worry about out there, when I'm focused on what I'm doing, instead of what they'll do when I fail.

You have good percentage at lags. I'll assume given the choice (and given a totally unknown opponent) you'd rather lag than flip a coin, choosing to place trust in your skill rather than cast your fate to the wind. That same sentiment is what drove me to make changes, and those have definitely made me a better player.

JMO, and Good Luck.
 
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jrctherake said:
Don't post until you can at least dunk on a 9" basket.

Until then stay in the corner with the other scrubs.
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WhoppingScholarlyAtlasmoth.gif
 
Catalin said:
I play in local 8-ball tournaments. I win the lag about 80% of the time, I'm good at it. And sometimes I ask my opponent to break. They are usually surprised, some didn't even know that was possible.

But think about it. Stats are published on here regularly, and on average the pros make balls on the break around 60% of the time if even. From my observation the average player has a below 50% success rate. Add to that that sometimes you will scratch on the break. Add to that that sometimes you don't have a ball to shoot after a successful break. When you put these together, it seems that you are better off letting your oponent break as often as possible?

Julian
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I agree completely. If you are playing 'take what you make' rules then it's a disadvantage to break for anyone under an A player.
 
Catalin, as your game and competition improves, giving up the break, is not an option. Master the second ball break, and the head ball break. Use whichever fits current situation. Focus on the stroke. I am no more than a B player, but I would beat most A players, well over half the time, if given the break. Choosing which suit, running out or playing safe, running three balls to position on a lock up safe, etc. Making these choices correctly, will win many games.
 
Thank you guys for your comments.

I wish you took my post more for what it was and less for what it wasn't. Some of you assumed that there was in issue with my break, or that I was leaving clusters or that I was breaking safe. I don't remember making any of those statements... This post was about the average player making balls on the break less than 50% of the time, therefore the odds of the opponent breaking dry and leaving you with open table are in your favor.

I think a lot of you may be overestimating how good your break is. I had the same conversation with a good player who wins about half of the local tournaments. He also thought that breaking gave him an advantage. Whenever we play together, I started pointing out and counting the dry breaks. You guessed it, his succes rate was under 50%. He hates me a little bit for it but it rattles him so I don't mind To be clear, here we play exclusively on 9ft tables with relatively tight pockets. On bar tables with large pockets it might be different. This also applies to a pool room environment, where you get a different table, balls and rack almost every time. On your home table with all the above being constant, your % might be better.

Breaking is chaos, there are a lot of variables that you can't control. How many times have you heard the commentators say "watch the second ball go in the middle pocket" - and it doesn't. Or "he leaves the cue ball center table every time" - and it ends up on a rail or kicked into a pocket. I will postulate that most of you enjoy breaking. It's a high. It's a gamble. But it's not necessarily in your favor.

Julian
 
rake...Did you not read the correct stats? The pro players average 1+ balls on the break about every other rack. Nobody makes a ball every time, playing 8-ball...even SVB, and his average will be higher than almost anyone else.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com'

jrctherake said:
Like someone said, you need to work on your break.

If you can't make a ball with control then resort to a safe break.

Rake
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