What Youngsters Want Old Masters Cues?
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29 and have wanted a bushka for awhile now, possibly one day, and yes I'd play with it for sure. These old beauty's deserve to get table time 
Sure being that a cue is merely a type of musical instrument....percussion based with stringed tendencies .....I look directly at musical instruments and you find a lack of such manmade material hoopla over say guitars/violins etc......
Makes one wonder are they the fools.....or do they know better than to think such totally man made fabrications out of man made materials are the end all be all answer.
I for one will stick with my prophetic answer from some years back
The best playing cues will always be out of wood....but one day such wood will be bioengineered to grow in a test tube
The controlled growth of the perfect material with millions.....trillions of interconnected cellular structures.....man made fibers don’t stand even a punchers chance if you ask me.
How’s that for a pace change ma frens?
I will say this tho if I owned a large scale production company I would only employ laminated tech and or the carbon tech....because of the obvious waste and consistent quality necessary.
I don’t want to be raping the trees like Taylor and Gibson....I can butcher a cow....but not a tree, they keep our records and support us...that is the least we can do for such loyal unrequited service to us all.
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I don’t want to be raping the trees like Taylor and Gibson....I can butcher a cow....but not a tree, they keep our records and support us...that is the least we can do for such loyal unrequited service to us all.
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Same argument is constantly had in many recording studios across the country. With audio, though digital is where every major studio and minor for that matter have gone, the consensus is there is nothing like analog and digital companies keep trying to get there but I don't believe it's possible at least on this planet. There are just things that we cant replicate. With that comes things with analog we dont want to replicate as well like the noise floor that comes along with it though minuscule when using great gear. That said things will stay that way until someone invents a way to quicken and replicate nature.
Nope, carbon is the future. Maybe even something better than carbon, but it will not be wood for much longer. Bioengineered wood may be the way forward for musical instruments (possibly, especially the high end ones) but for cues I highly doubt it. Personally I like wooden shaft cues, but there is just so much to gain for companies to switch to carbon, I can't see them not doing it. Cues iwth old growth shafts are great and all, but they do deflect quite a lot especially the older style of cue with Ivory ferrules and the like. For someone learning the game, that is a disadvantage. I guess the feel issues that carbon do have will be adressed soon enough. "Best cues" is also somewhat open to interpretation. What does that actually mean? Best feeling cues? That's entirely subjective. Cues with which the top players get the best results? That will be tough to prove. The lowest deflecting cues will certainly be synthetic. That's at least an objective measure. Most efficient (power). That will probably be carbon as well. As of right now, the cues that I personally prefer are made of wood, and likely will be for some time to come. But forever? I dobut it.
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Many have tried to replicate the sound of a Stradivarius violin. Even with todays technology they cant seem to get it just right. They've tried different woods, glues, finishes, copying construction techniques and even using composite materials. I dont think they'll ever figure it out.
That doesn't mean that others, even newer, dont sound good. But there is something special about the Strad's.
I think it's the similar with wood vs any other material for shafts. Are there advantages to carbon, of course. For one the consistency from shaft to shaft will be more repeatable but I would think still not exact. There must be possible variation from shaft to shaft how small it may be. As for their deflection, I'm not convinced that the lower the deflection the better the hit/feel. Will begginers be able to play better? Well they may once they get done pocketing thousands of balls and getting the game under their wing. By then I think they'll be able to play with any cue they feel is great feeling/hitting.
Just to make things clear, in no way do I think choosing composite or engineered shafts is wrong or a bad thing in any way. To each their own. I also am not sold that they will completely replace one piece wood.
The comparison with instruments isn't quite apt, IMO. While Bach played with an Electric guitar or plastic violin may be interesting and cool, it's not quite the same. Instruments have changed since the Baroque and Classical era, but electric or plastic may be taking things too far (as a mainstay in orchestras). It certainly has been seen that way so far. Sound is the aim in music, as well as artistic integrity. In pool sound is merely a bi-product.
Pool is about putting balls in the pocket. If you can do it better than your opponent, you win. There are no points for sound or feel. Shane Van Boening has played with a cue that emitted a horrible buzzing noise from either the weight bolt or some other component. He didn't seem to mind. He is hard of hearing, but that only proves the point, that sound and feel is not as important as they're cracked up to be. I personally love great sounding and feeling cues, and may even play better because of that fact, but given time and no choice, I don't think bad qualities in these areas would hold me back. There is however a point in deflection where I think a cue may actually start to hold me back in a way I could not easily compensate for.
I think analogies only go so far. They help someone unfamiliar to the topic gain a point of reference. After that they are nearly meaningless to someone familiar with the subject matter. Comparing the material used in a cue to the material used in a golf club, tennis racket, musical instrument or knitting needle doesn’t add much of anything to the conversation with this audience because all the nuances that separate the analogy from reality are glaringly obvious.
I think we are capable here of discussing the value of carbon fiber, wood, custom craftsmanship and production craftsmanship specifically as they relate to playing billiards without trying to appeal to non-billiards.
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I think we are capable here of discussing the value of carbon fiber, wood, custom craftsmanship and production craftsmanship specifically as they relate to playing billiards without trying to appeal to non-billiards.
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I would think since Shane is deaf that his feel and awareness of it would be greater. Whether that affects him in any way he would have to answer. Then again the man pockets so well I'm not sure what if anything would rattle him.
My only point with my analogies is to make it clear that there is no one way or product that is/are the be all tell all. There are advantages in both directions. Just like there is not just one cue for every player.
How we got so deep into this when all I originaly asked was do younger players have that top master old school desire I'm not quite sure but since I've fed into it I guess I'm as much to blame as anyone.....well maybe not anyone..LOL.
I get you. But with something like golf, wood is done but for a reason that doesn’t apply to pool. If wood is ever done for pool, it will be for a reason that doesn’t apply to violins. And if wood stays relevant to pool forever it will be a reason that doesn’t apply to ping pong. Even if in some aspects you can relate pool to golf, violins, ping pong and horseback riding.
Back to your original topic, I was first to say I’m interested in owning an old masterwork cue. But to be honest, it’s got sentimentality. To be more honest, it’s because Balabushka was said in Color of Money and I never saw one in person and would love the story/prestige of having one. And if not that, then to adjacently appreciate one from a semi-equivalent legend. But still, same reason. Color of Money.
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Question was about collecting cues, not playing with them. Got derailed on the first page IMO. The question also did not take into consideration your personal financial situation. It was an open question about whether you would collect them. Most collectors don't play with every cue they own. I am one of them. There are cues I like to play with and those that I like to collect. Two different animals. I occasionally play with the ones I collect, but they are not my everyday players.
My first set of woods were Powerbuilt Persimmon head. Those heads were so tinny compared to todays behemoths....Also had a bad experience with a horse as a kid so no horseback riding for me..lol:wink:
Even back then when the TCOM was filmed it was understood George's cues were special and desireable. Players making cameos and involved in consulting for the movie played a part as to why they chose a Balabushka for the Fast Eddie's cue. It had to be something that fit the timeline and had some mystique to it.
Yep...As for the financial aspect, personally, I've never been wealthy so to speak but since being a working stiff from an early age I've pretty much had the funds available to get into plain or slightly inlaid works from Gus or George but just couldn't justify due to more pressing interests over the years. After my first Gus in the 80's I knew that I had to have another at some point though. His work was the best. ( lost it in a car fire not long after I got it..
)... It took a while but being involved in the cue industry for so many years and a little luck being at the right place, right time, and choosing the right cues to hold on to paid off and I've been able to continue my original desire to have some of Gus and also George's work again. Now I just have a couple more cue goals left to fill. Of course that couple may change to many.. :smile:
I dont see why "youngsters" would want old masters cues, unless they are well off and collect cues, which is a very small subset of the population, let alone the population that actually plays pool.
Ive played with a Gus for 20 years and in that time many players have asked me about the cue and ive offered to let many shoot a bit with it. In the last 10 years or so, the players who have learned pool with LD have tried my cue and of course they cannot make a ball with it except for straight in center ball. A few even have openly told me, I dont like the way the cue hits.
There are other reasons why I dont see alot of younger players wanting old masters cues and honestly some of these reasons have been bouncing around in my head off and on for the last 4-5 years and have made me consider changing cues. I havent yet but the revo technology is making me tempted.
~ most of the old masters cues are 57". I find myself holding the delrin area of my Gus often and more than a few times ive thought that the stroke I just made on the ball didnt deliver what I wanted because the cue was too short. I usually just reconsider the matter and come to conclusion its not the cue its my crappy stroke which seems to be getting less straight the older I get.
~ alot of the newer cues you can screw on an extension and shoot shots without a bridge. Unless I take along my 4x8 soft case, I cant fit an extension into my case that slides over the butt of my Gus.
~ The technology in these newer LD shafts like the carbon fiber shafts is pretty interesting. I hit with a Revo a month ago in Tallahassee and it was pretty amazing. There is definitely an attraction I can see towards playing with LD, even for us older players that feel like its relearning pool all over again to play with these shafts.
~If my cue gets lost/stolen/damaged I cannot replace it. The hit and feel of my cue might be able to be duplicated by another cue but at what cost and in what time frame can I accomplish that? If I play with a LD cue, I can be back playing almost immediately with the same identical feel of what I am accustomed to.
Ive played with a Gus for 20 years and in that time many players have asked me about the cue and ive offered to let many shoot a bit with it. In the last 10 years or so, the players who have learned pool with LD have tried my cue and of course they cannot make a ball with it except for straight in center ball. A few even have openly told me, I dont like the way the cue hits.
There are other reasons why I dont see alot of younger players wanting old masters cues and honestly some of these reasons have been bouncing around in my head off and on for the last 4-5 years and have made me consider changing cues. I havent yet but the revo technology is making me tempted.
~ most of the old masters cues are 57". I find myself holding the delrin area of my Gus often and more than a few times ive thought that the stroke I just made on the ball didnt deliver what I wanted because the cue was too short. I usually just reconsider the matter and come to conclusion its not the cue its my crappy stroke which seems to be getting less straight the older I get.
~ alot of the newer cues you can screw on an extension and shoot shots without a bridge. Unless I take along my 4x8 soft case, I cant fit an extension into my case that slides over the butt of my Gus.
~ The technology in these newer LD shafts like the carbon fiber shafts is pretty interesting. I hit with a Revo a month ago in Tallahassee and it was pretty amazing. There is definitely an attraction I can see towards playing with LD, even for us older players that feel like its relearning pool all over again to play with these shafts.
~If my cue gets lost/stolen/damaged I cannot replace it. The hit and feel of my cue might be able to be duplicated by another cue but at what cost and in what time frame can I accomplish that? If I play with a LD cue, I can be back playing almost immediately with the same identical feel of what I am accustomed to.
This thread also made me think about the hit of my Gus.Hit is a subjective thing and its inevitable that in the discussion of hit of the old masters cues there will always be raised the very valid point that the name of the cue and the awe it inspires can influence perception. I really do believe for a non LD cue, my Gus hits pretty amazing. Ive posted before about the how my Szamboti plays and Ill just cut and paste the older post. (this was in 2006 on AZ)
My best friend is an on again/off again pool player. Actually plays pretty good sometimes and has been known to run 2-4 racks on occasion. A few years back I caught high end pool cue-itis. I had 15 high end cues and one weekend I let my best friend test drive them all, even though he is completely igorant of cues outside the realm of production cues. So I laid out these cues which included
-my current playing cue a G. Szamboti
-two Benders
-hoppe conversion scruggs
-2 Southwests
-omega DPK
-2 Searings
-late 60's Joss
-2 Joss Wests
-Mottey
-Pete Ohman sneaky pete
-Coker
We played a whole weekend that my wife took the kids upstate to visit her Mom. At the end of the weekend I asked him which one he liked best.
He was apologetic, "Yknow, I hate to tell you this, but I really like this plain jane cue the best (the four point no ivory, no inlaid G. Szamboti)." He was worried I would be all upset that he didnt like my fancy looking cues the best. I just laughed. So when people ask me how my cue hits, sometimes I tell them about how my cue passed my own version of the Taster's Choice Blind test.
My best friend is an on again/off again pool player. Actually plays pretty good sometimes and has been known to run 2-4 racks on occasion. A few years back I caught high end pool cue-itis. I had 15 high end cues and one weekend I let my best friend test drive them all, even though he is completely igorant of cues outside the realm of production cues. So I laid out these cues which included
-my current playing cue a G. Szamboti
-two Benders
-hoppe conversion scruggs
-2 Southwests
-omega DPK
-2 Searings
-late 60's Joss
-2 Joss Wests
-Mottey
-Pete Ohman sneaky pete
-Coker
We played a whole weekend that my wife took the kids upstate to visit her Mom. At the end of the weekend I asked him which one he liked best.
He was apologetic, "Yknow, I hate to tell you this, but I really like this plain jane cue the best (the four point no ivory, no inlaid G. Szamboti)." He was worried I would be all upset that he didnt like my fancy looking cues the best. I just laughed. So when people ask me how my cue hits, sometimes I tell them about how my cue passed my own version of the Taster's Choice Blind test.
So while the older violins may sound good, and a lot of people pay a bunch for old guitars vs new ones, the "goodness" of the sound is really in the listener. To some it may just be "different" not better. Also is it better enough even if it's better to pay $500,000 for an instrument vs $1,000 for a decent modern one just for the sound difference? I watched a show about the Stads and attempts to replicate them and other old master violins, which was very close by the way in a fully electronic violin, and while there was a difference in sound even though YouTube and cheap headphones, it was mostly different to me not better enough to pay 500, 1,000 over the price of a new one. Yes some were better, but to me, there were 2-3-4 instruments that sounded good, and only one of them was the old one.
I own a cheaper PRS guitar (one of the Korean made one), maybe $700 new now. I think it sounds better and plays better in my hands than any of the $2-3,000 vintage or new Stats or Teles I tried, and better than most Gibsons I tried. In fact one of my favorite Les Pauls is a used Epiphone I got for abut $200, about 25 years old, nice smooth and rich sound. I tried a few real Gibsons, and for the price difference of 5-10 times the Epiphones, I'd stick with the cheaper copies.
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I'm the same way. I have a 1968 Fender J bass. It plays nice. But the J bass clone i built out of Warmoth parts a couple years ago plays better and sounds better. The pickups in my Warmoth are supposedly would just like the originals. Obviously the bridge and tuners are different but not much else is different. I even wired them the same as best I could.