Maximum Throw at Different Speeds and Angles Video

[CueAndMe]

It took me a couple of months to put this together. I wanted to find out what throw ranges to incorporate into my printable practice tools, so I recorded this experiment. I finally finished editing it tonight and got it up on YouTube. I actually learned a few things, and I think you'll be surprised at the results as well. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/IF-xJ953hBc

 

[Mick]

Lots of good stuff to think about here. Thanks for putting in the work.

I'm assuming your testing was done with polished, like-new balls. Did you do any testing with dirty balls? I'd assume that that would amplify the throw by a lot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Very interesting - thanks.

One observation: the small gap between the “ghost ball” and OB avoids “overthrow” that would be caused by static friction between frozen balls. I don’t know if your theory of different effective masses is true or not (but it’s an interesting idea).

I think Dr. Dave did a similar test with similar (though maybe not as detailed) results.

pj
chgo

 

[Lynch]

Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!

Like a car's tires "burning rubber" against the pavement with too much acceleration, the friction between the balls is reduced with too much speed - this can be caused by CB speed, cut angle and even the amount of side spin. For instance, maximum centerball throw is achieved with a slow half ball hit - adding any inside spin to that actually reduces throw.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

It took me a couple of months to put this together. I wanted to find out what throw ranges to incorporate into my printable practice tools, so I recorded this experiment. I finally finished editing it tonight and got it up on YouTube. I actually learned a few things, and I think you'll be surprised at the results as well. Check it out!
...

Below is a plot I made a long time ago about throw versus speed and angle. It was included in my June, 1995 Billiards Digest article which you can find here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think you will find a lot of additional info on Dr. Dave's website along with the theory that explains the very strange shape of the curves and the speed dependence.

 

[CueAndMe]

Wow, Bob! I'm a little embarrassed that I'm suggesting to others that they read your articles, and I somehow missed this. I'm also stunned that I used such a similar setup. Maybe I did read this article at some point in the past and it was buried in my subconscious. I apologize that I didn't acknowledge it. I'll go and add a link in the YouTube video description.

Hopefully the video at least renews interest in the subject and offers a slightly different "moving-picture" version of your experiment. It also offers slightly different results, although a lot turns out to be very similar.

Maybe conditions are a factor? I used the Aramith Tournament (Duramith) Balls. Do you recall what balls you used?

I'm about to embark on another experiment to show minimum throw using the golf tee guards on my RotoThroTractor and Gauntlet tools. Did you ever test for minimum throw, and if so, how did you set it up?

I'm not looking to repeat tests that were already done. I actually want to get back to preparing and sharing the system that began this whole journey, but I figure finding minimum throw is a worthwhile task. And for the sake of completeness, a minimum throw video would complement the maximum throw video.

Thanks again for all of your contributions over the years!

Below is a plot I made a long time ago about throw versus speed and angle. It was included in my June, 1995 Billiards Digest article which you can find here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think you will find a lot of additional info on Dr. Dave's website along with the theory that explains the very strange shape of the curves and the speed dependence.

 

[CueAndMe]

Lots of good stuff to think about here. Thanks for putting in the work.

I'm assuming your testing was done with polished, like-new balls. Did you do any testing with dirty balls? I'd assume that that would amplify the throw by a lot.

Yes, the balls are about 2 years old, but they are in like new condition. I polished them with Aramith Ball Cleaner about a week before I took the video. Sadly, no I didn't try testing dirty balls or different sets of balls. Maybe someday I'll have access to more sets and access to more energy. :wink:

 

[CueAndMe]

Very interesting - thanks.

One observation: the small gap between the “ghost ball” and OB avoids “overthrow” that would be caused by static friction between frozen balls. I don’t know if your theory of different effective masses is true or not (but it’s an interesting idea).

I think Dr. Dave did a similar test with similar (though maybe not as detailed) results.

pj
chgo

Hey, Patrick. It's been a long time since we've last conversed. Good to see you! Yeah, I don't know if I was right to leave that gap for the reasons I suggest. But it felt like the right thing to do? Not very scientific, I know. If you have a link to Dr. Dave's test, I'd love to see it.

 

[CueAndMe]

Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!

You're quite welcome! I think sometimes throw could be why we miss a shot that otherwise we were dead on to make. So knowing when to expect it is a great sense to have.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're quite welcome! I think sometimes throw could be why we miss a shot that otherwise we were dead on to make. So knowing when to expect it is a great sense to have.

When and how much. Knowing what maximizes throw (moderate speed/spin/angle) also teaches how to minimize it - or use it.

pj
chgo

 

[CueAndMe]

I found an article on Dr. Dave's site dated September 2006.
https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/sept06.pdf

His graph looks very similar to both Bob's and mine, but the three graphs have their differences. For soft shots, both Bob and Dr. Dave peaked at 6° or more throw, whereas I barely got over 5°. Theirs subsided, whereas mine remained very near 5° for all angles from just above 30° all the way up to 80°. Maybe it had to do with the gap I left between the balls?

It looks like the two angles with the most throw for both Dr. Dave and me were 35° and 40°. And Bob's were about 28° and 37°. Averaging this data suggests that the 3/8-ball hit has more throw potential than 1/2-ball for soft shots.

 

[bstroud]

I found your work very interesting.

I started playing pool 73 years ago.

I started playing with clay balls and later Centeniels.

Object ball throw did not seem to be an issue until Arimath balls and Simonis cloth was introduced.

Do you have any opinion about that?

Bill S.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I found your work very interesting.

I started playing pool 73 years ago.

I started playing with clay balls and later Centeniels.

Object ball throw did not seem to be an issue until Arimath balls and Simonis cloth was introduced.

Do you have any opinion about that?

Bill S.

Cloth has nothing to do with it. I’m pretty sure clay balls threw more than modern ones.

pj
chgo

 

[bstroud]

Cloth has nothing to do with it. I’m pretty sure clay balls threw more than modern ones.

pj
chgo

Not at all that I ever saw.

I really think it is the cloth

Bill S.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I’m pretty sure clay balls threw more than modern ones.

Not at all that I ever saw.

I'm just guessing about this, based on my assumption that clay balls weren't as smoothly polished as modern ones. That would increase ball/ball friction, which is the source of throw.

I really think it is the cloth

Lots of players have thought that - but there's never been a believable reason suggested for it. Cloth might affect ball speed, and heavily napped cloth (like snooker cloth) might even cause a slow rolling ball to curve slightly. But there's no way it would change the ball's initial direction - that's all due to friction between CB and OB.

Knowing this doesn't help my game at all.

pj
chgo

 

[CueAndMe]

I found your work very interesting.

I started playing pool 73 years ago.

I started playing with clay balls and later Centeniels.

Object ball throw did not seem to be an issue until Arimath balls and Simonis cloth was introduced.

Do you have any opinion about that?

Bill S.

Thank you, Bill! I don't know much about the clay/Bakelite balls except that I recall a straight pool video where I believe Grady Matthews was commentating and commenting on the old clay balls. I think he said they banked truer, but I don't know if he said anything about throw. He might have mentioned fewer skids.

I would guess that what Patrick is suggesting is true. If the clay balls weren't as smooth as the acrylic/plastic balls, I don't think that they would throw less. Unless friction isn't the only cause of throw. If the clay balls were harder than the acrylic balls, maybe they were more elastic and the collision duration was shorter and maybe that meant less throw? I've never played with them, so I don't know their properties. I'm just throwing out guesses here.

 

[dr_dave]

It took me a couple of months to put this together. I wanted to find out what throw ranges to incorporate into my printable practice tools, so I recorded this experiment. I finally finished editing it tonight and got it up on YouTube. I actually learned a few things, and I think you'll be surprised at the results as well. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/IF-xJ953hBc

View attachment 503630

Jeff,

Excellent video documenting a carefully-performed experiment. FYI, I've added the following at the bottom of the squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page:

Here's a good video by CueAndMe showing a carefully-executed experiment clearly showing the effects of cut angle and spin on throw. Results of similar experiments can be found in "Throw - Part II: results" (BD, September, 2006) and in the plot from Bob Jewett's June, 1995 BD article.

Again, good job,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

One observation: the small gap between the “ghost ball” and OB avoids “overthrow” that would be caused by static friction between frozen balls. I don’t know if your theory of different effective masses is true or not (but it’s an interesting idea).

There is static friction with or without a gap at small cut angles, because the balls "gear" together during contact. That's why all of the "throw vs. cut angle" curves are straight at small cut angles for all shot speeds. At larger cut angles, the gap does have a small effect on throw (and on the amount of cut), but not nearly as much as some people might think, per the results in the following video:

NV D.17 - Does a pool and billiards frozen combination throw more than a small-gap stun shot?

FYI, much more information on this topic, including detailed explanations of the physics, can be found on the frozen-ball throw resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Like a car's tires "burning rubber" against the pavement with too much acceleration, the friction between the balls is reduced with too much speed - this can be caused by CB speed, cut angle and even the amount of side spin.

A good demonstration of the sidespin effect can be found at the 8:52 point in the following video:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV

Enjoy,
Dave