14.1 Stats -- John Schmidt's Run of 434 on Video, December 2018

The record will never be broken, because there will always be haters, naysayers, smear merchants, and deniers who will find 1,000 excuses and reasons as to why it would be invalid.

It is evident by the many threads on AZB on this topic, that nothing can satisfy them. What they have done is lay the ground work in advance to illegitimize any potential record breaking. These people should stop wasting time with pool, and find high paying jobs in politics where these skills are in demand. We should call them the Asterisk Gang. They seek to put an asterisk on any potential record break.


Not sure how to analyze the psychology of such people who cling to the past and for some reason, need the record to stand with Mosconi....these people have some kind of problem within themselves and project it onto the record.


As for JS, he holds the 9 foot table record, regardless of pocket size. He also holds the video-taped record. Which, to me is the most important record of all. Hard evidence. No exaggerations, no myths or legends. No he said she said. Right there on video for all to see.

Still though, the haters find nonsense. Such as attacking the racker. Really? Who racked for Mosconi and to what standards were they held? Or when they cleaned the cue ball.....this is very sad and pathetic attempts to pick at JS.


I would say that 434 on a 9 footer is at least equivalent to 526 on an 8 footer, but that remains to be seen. I'm with Bob in thinking that they ought to setup a 8 foot table to match the specs of Brunswick's demo table that Mosconi set the record on. 526 probably would have been broken. Maybe John wants something better or greater? Or maybe he wants to silence the critics by doing it on a 9 foot table?


I can't believe the amount of criticism out there regarding the pocket size and ease, while simultaneously ignoring Mosconi did it on a 8 footer. Just bizarre.
 
The record will never be broken, because there will always be haters, naysayers, smear merchants, and deniers who will find 1,000 excuses and reasons as to why it would be invalid.

It is evident by the many threads on AZB on this topic, that nothing can satisfy them. What they have done is lay the ground work in advance to illegitimize any potential record breaking. These people should stop wasting time with pool, and find high paying jobs in politics where these skills are in demand. We should call them the Asterisk Gang. They seek to put an asterisk on any potential record break.


Not sure how to analyze the psychology of such people who cling to the past and for some reason, need the record to stand with Mosconi....these people have some kind of problem within themselves and project it onto the record.


As for JS, he holds the 9 foot table record, regardless of pocket size. He also holds the video-taped record. Which, to me is the most important record of all. Hard evidence. No exaggerations, no myths or legends. No he said she said. Right there on video for all to see.

Still though, the haters find nonsense. Such as attacking the racker. Really? Who racked for Mosconi and to what standards were they held? Or when they cleaned the cue ball.....this is very sad and pathetic attempts to pick at JS.


I would say that 434 on a 9 footer is at least equivalent to 526 on an 8 footer, but that remains to be seen. I'm with Bob in thinking that they ought to setup a 8 foot table to match the specs of Brunswick's demo table that Mosconi set the record on. 526 probably would have been broken. Maybe John wants something better or greater? Or maybe he wants to silence the critics by doing it on a 9 foot table?


I can't believe the amount of criticism out there regarding the pocket size and ease, while simultaneously ignoring Mosconi did it on a 8 footer. Just bizarre.
How 'bout Crane's 309 on a 10ft'r? He got to 150 and they egg'd him to continue so he hit 'em with "Formula 309". Getcha some.
 
How 'bout Crane's 309 on a 10ft'r? He got to 150 and they egg'd him to continue so he hit 'em with "Formula 309". Getcha some.

And that exhibition-record run of 309 by Crane on a 10-footer in 1939 was tied by Mosconi in 1945.
 
... As for JS, he holds the 9 foot table record, regardless of pocket size. He also holds the video-taped record. ...

Video-taped record -- yes. Overall record on a 9-footer -- well, that sort of depends on what you want to count. Contenders include Cranfield, Eufemia, Mosconi, Engert, and maybe some others.
 
I still think the primary cause of John's scratch was "ball turn" (and the fact that he lost control of the CB a bit).
FYI, John just posted on Facebook on my share in the "POOL IS NOT DEAD!" group. This is what he wrote in response to my video:

John Schmidt:
"... thx dr Dave. I like your vids, you're very smart and cut through all the misconceptions. Great job"

"... totally ball turn. Tons of bottom right spin plus cb traveling slowly was the perfect combo to kill me"

Regards,
Dave
 
FYI, I just spent some time at my table trying to find evidence that the weave direction could affect the motion of a ball, and I could not find any. I still think the primary cause of John's scratch was "ball turn" (and the fact that he lost control of the CB a bit).
For those interested, online video NV B.7 (starting at the 2:49 point), offers an intuitive physical explanation for why a ball rolling with sidespin can turn.

Regards,
Dave
 
FYI, John just posted on Facebook on my share in the "POOL IS NOT DEAD!" group. This is what he wrote in response to my video:

John Schmidt:
"... thx dr Dave. I like your vids, you're very smart and cut through all the misconceptions. Great job"

"... totally ball turn. Tons of bottom right spin plus cb traveling slowly was the perfect combo to kill me"

Regards,
Dave
I still contend, based on a few video clips during the run, of the cue ball moving a little after initially stopping and it wasn't sitting on a slate seam either time, and both times occuring with a measle dot directly on top of the ball meaning there was another dot directly on the base of the ball contacting the cloth when it rolled over again. So you are claiming these separate occurences/incidents must have been due to a foreign substance either on the cue ball or on the cloth that caused that movement?
 
To me it looked like last moment ''gearing'' of cue ball before rest. The cloth in that area might of been thicker, as it noticeably changed directions. Cue ball actions didn't appear to of hit anything, just last moment side to side cue ball spin catchin' the rag right before rest.
 
I still contend, based on a few video clips during the run, of the cue ball moving a little after initially stopping and it wasn't sitting on a slate seam either time, and both times occuring with a measle dot directly on top of the ball meaning there was another dot directly on the base of the ball contacting the cloth when it rolled over again. So you are claiming these separate occurences/incidents must have been due to a foreign substance either on the cue ball or on the cloth that caused that movement?
I see balls settle (and sometimes resettle) often. This can be due to many things: damaged or loose cloth fibers, dirt on or under the cloth, dirt on the ball, imperfections on the slate surface or seams, divots or other surface damage on the ball, a bulge or flattish spot on the ball, etc. I don't know what caused ball settles in the video, but I do know that a perfectly smooth, round, and balanced ball rolling slowly with a lot of sidespin or a smooth and clean cloth can turn.

Regards,
Dave
 
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I see balls settle (and sometimes resettle) often. This can be due to many things: damaged or loose cloth fibers, dirt on or under the cloth, dirt on the ball, imperfections on the slate surface or seams, divots or other surface damage on the ball, a bulge or flattish spot on the ball, etc. I don't know what caused ball settles in the video, but I do know that a perfectly smooth, round, and balanced ball rolling slowly with a lot of sidespin or a smooth and clean cloth can turn.

Regards,
Dave

Is this the same or similar to gyroscopic precession?
 
I see balls settle (and sometimes resettle) often. This can be due to many things: damaged or loose cloth fibers, dirt on or under the cloth, dirt on the ball, imperfections on the slate surface or seams, divots or other surface damage on the ball, a bulge or flattish spot on the ball, etc. I don't know what caused ball settles in the video, but I do know that a perfectly smooth, round, and balanced ball rolling slowly with a lot of sidespin or a smooth and clean cloth can turn.
Is this the same or similar to gyroscopic precession?
No. There are no gyroscopic effects with a perfect sphere. Now, if the CB has a bulging red dot, then it is no longer a perfect sphere, and there could be gyroscopic effects (like a top).

Regards,
Dave
 
... but I do know that a perfectly smooth, round, and balanced ball rolling slowly with a lot of sidespin or a smooth and clean cloth can turn.
...
And I've never seen a round, balanced ball "turn" anywhere near that much under reasonable conditions. I've seen a lot of balls come to a stop still rotating at a high rate. Never have I seen a ball come over what appears to be 10 to 12 inches off the initial direction as on the video.

Until someone can demonstrate a good ball on a flat table turning that much, I'll remain convinced that something else was going on and "turn" was only a small part of the shot.
 
And I've never seen a round, balanced ball "turn" anywhere near that much under reasonable conditions. I've seen a lot of balls come to a stop still rotating at a high rate. Never have I seen a ball come over what appears to be 10 to 12 inches off the initial direction as on the video.

Until someone can demonstrate a good ball on a flat table turning that much, I'll remain convinced that something else was going on and "turn" was only a small part of the shot.
I agree that there was something else going on, but I still think "ball turn" was an important component. Your bulging dot theory is also plausible, but it sure would be nice to inspect the CB used to see if this theory holds any weight. I think some of the other possible causes listed on the ball turn resource page could also be contributing factors.

Regards,
Dave
 
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And I've never seen a round, balanced ball "turn" anywhere near that much under reasonable conditions. I've seen a lot of balls come to a stop still rotating at a high rate. Never have I seen a ball come over what appears to be 10 to 12 inches off the initial direction as on the video.

Until someone can demonstrate a good ball on a flat table turning that much, I'll remain convinced that something else was going on and "turn" was only a small part of the shot.

The way/amount it turned towards/too the pocket before scratching, seemed Very odd.
 
a proper slow motion camera on that scratch would be nice. anyhow, it's a sick amount of spin, lots of english + the collision induced spin. just before it scratches it looks almost like the spin revs up, looks like the wagon-wheel effect of a wheel rim

i'm somewhere in between bobs and daves theories here, after watching it 20+ times. it sure looks like it's spinning on the same measle dot axis, and any imperfection of the CB might explain some, but the symmetrical curve makes me lean towards ball turn
 
A gradual turn? Sure but not the "right turn Clyde" seen here. Something else going on besides spin-induced ball curve.
 
And I've never seen a round, balanced ball "turn" anywhere near that much under reasonable conditions. I've seen a lot of balls come to a stop still rotating at a high rate. Never have I seen a ball come over what appears to be 10 to 12 inches off the initial direction as on the video.

Until someone can demonstrate a good ball on a flat table turning that much, I'll remain convinced that something else was going on and "turn" was only a small part of the shot.

I'm with you there Bob. I've never seen a good cue ball act that way. Spin alone won't do that, unless it came out of Mike Massey's hand. :thumbup:
 
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