So tell me...

Ak Guy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back in the day, when Buddy and Siegel and Efren and Johnny and Earl and Nick, etc. were the 9 Ball kings. Was there all this pissing and moaning about the rack? Did they have to have a certain rack and size pockets and neutral racker?

Did they match up with their own money or a backer and toss out some real cash in 9 Ball match ups? Or is this a new deal?
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back in the day, when Buddy and Siegel and Efren and Johnny and Earl and Nick, etc. were the 9 Ball kings. Was there all this pissing and moaning about the rack? Did they have to have a certain rack and size pockets and neutral racker?

Did they match up with their own money or a backer and toss out some real cash in 9 Ball match ups? Or is this a new deal?

The problem started with Simonis IMO. The wing balls were now wired, and by the mid 90s tournaments were coming up with obstacles such as the break box to try to eliminate them.

Example of play on slower cloth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4&t
 

daphish1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem started with Simonis IMO. The wing balls were now wired, and by the mid 90s tournaments were coming up with obstacles such as the break box to try to eliminate them.

Example of play on slower cloth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4&t

To me the break looks the same, not sure it's a Simonis thing. Not sure when the Sardo rack was introduced but that definitely was a game changer with wired wing balls.

On the first break the wing ball almost went and he was breaking from around a diamond away. If he would have hit a little easier it probably would have dropped. Second break he switches and wing ball goes into the side rail.


I was a kid back then so pure speculation. I suspect if you didn't give your opponent a good rack (not all balls froze but relatively good contact) and lost the rack. Next rack they are getting ol' sluggo.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
The problem started with Simonis IMO. The wing balls were now wired, and by the mid 90s tournaments were coming up with obstacles such as the break box to try to eliminate them.

Example of play on slower cloth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4&t


Notice one thing neither Buddy or Earl are doing? Checking the rack... and they're using a *triangle*! Man, they musta been realllyyyy stupid, huh? Guess they didn't know nuthin 'bout pool.

It's a wonder either of 'em could ht the end rail.
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Notice one thing neither Buddy or Earl are doing? Checking the rack... and they're using a *triangle*! Man, they musta been realllyyyy stupid, huh? Guess they didn't know nuthin 'bout pool.

It's a wonder either of 'em could ht the end rail.

Yes, but Earl had not yet discovered duck tape either. :rolleyes:

.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
As long as I've been around, there have been "discussions" between players about the rack in 9-Ball. For a long, long time we played loser racks and it was an opportunity for the loser to create a difficult (often loose) rack for the winner to break. Some guys became pretty adept at that.

Of course, there have always been certain players who made this more of a problem then others, just like there is today. But often enough, in important matches deep in a tournament I was forced to step in and mitigate racking problems with the players. Quite often I would put up a good rack and show them it could be done and tell them not to call me back to their table again. I really didn't want to be their rack boy, and we had too many tables going at the same time for me to stay solely by their table. Usually that worked, but not always. :wink:

We began to switch to winner racks and that helped for quite a while, until some guys became adept at "adjusting" the rack so they could always make the corner ball. Then the "discussions" began all over again. Next it was the Sardo rack and on and on until the present day. C'est la vie.
 
Last edited:

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
As long as I've been around, there have been "discussions" between players about the rack in 9-Ball. For a long, long time we played loser racks and it was an opportunity for the loser to create a difficult (often loose) rack for the winner to break. Some guys became pretty adept at that.

Of course, there have always been certain players who made this more of a problem then others, just like there is today. But often enough, in important matches deep in a tournament I was forced to step in and mitigate racking problems with the players. Quite often I would put up a good rack and show them it could be done and tell them not to call me back to their table again. I really didn't want to be their rack boy, and we had too many tables going at the same time for me to stay solely by their table. Usually that worked, but not always. :wink:

We began to switch to winner racks and that helped for quite a while, until some guys became adept at "adjusting" the rack so they could always make the corner ball. Then the "discussions" began all over again. Next it was the Sardo rack and on and on until the present day. C'est la vie.

It's just like-ah my granddaddy always tol' me... if it's not-ah one thing, it's another, if it's not-ah this, it's-ah that... it's-ah alwwaayssssss ah something!

:grin-square: :grin: :grin-square:
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
racking

Notice one thing neither Buddy or Earl are doing? Checking the rack... and they're using a *triangle*! Man, they musta been realllyyyy stupid, huh? Guess they didn't know nuthin 'bout pool.

It's a wonder either of 'em could ht the end rail.

I believe I understand your point; that people are too dismissive of yesterday's champions. Yet I think racking has evolved quite a bit as well. I think Earl and Buddy were usually checking to make sure the one ball was frozen and there weren't too many big gaps. Today's players are checking various 'tracks' to make sure the understand how the gaps will impact the timing of the wing ball carom. This information just wasn't out there 20 years ago.

I didn't play pre-Simonis but I have no doubt that made an impact. This was an issue before Diamond and Sardo Tight rack. In 1990 at the US Open Nick Varner vs Mike Sigel the corner ball was made 21 times in a row (11-10 match, my favorite of all time). That was with a triangle and breaking from the edge of the box (it was before the box, but they were breaking from halfway from the rail to center of the headstring).

All in all though, the DCC rules are the closest I've seen to fair. The wing ball isn't always wired with the 9 on the spot, and getting 3 balls through the kitchen or pocketed was far from assured. I saw quite a few illegal breaks, and I'd estimate that 10% of my breaks were illegal. Then again, Sky was able to solve this rack which is part of the reason he took 3rd at the US Open and won the DCC 9 ball, they used the same format. As I mentioned before he was racking and breaking with such consistency he made the 2 ball three rails in the side two breaks in a row.

It's really strange that we haven't fixed this yet. We could go one of a few ways. We could make it much harder to break the balls, or we could make it much easier and allow for a dead wing ball and then everyone can soft break in style and have an equal opportunity to convert on their breaks. At the US Open Bar Table championships the corner ball was so dead people shot the break like any other stop shot and played shape for the 1. At first I hated that, but it did make things fair and I grew to enjoy it.

I've always felt that a mandatory push out would take the break out of the game entirely and make the entire game a pure test of pool knowledge and execution. It would put so much play in the game that a race to 5 would have as much pool as a race to 9 today. But 9 ball is supposed to be a momentum game where people can string racks and play explosively, and a mandatory push out would kill that.

The solution isn't obvious. In the meantime as a player you just have to keep up on the best strategies and try to duplicate what the top players are doing. It is what it is.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
I believe I understand your point; that people are too dismissive of yesterday's champions. Yet I think racking has evolved quite a bit as well. I think Earl and Buddy were usually checking to make sure the one ball was frozen and there weren't too many big gaps. Today's players are checking various 'tracks' to make sure the understand how the gaps will impact the timing of the wing ball carom. This information just wasn't out there 20 years ago.

I didn't play pre-Simonis but I have no doubt that made an impact. This was an issue before Diamond and Sardo Tight rack. In 1990 at the US Open Nick Varner vs Mike Sigel the corner ball was made 21 times in a row (11-10 match, my favorite of all time). That was with a triangle and breaking from the edge of the box (it was before the box, but they were breaking from halfway from the rail to center of the headstring).

All in all though, the DCC rules are the closest I've seen to fair. The wing ball isn't always wired with the 9 on the spot, and getting 3 balls through the kitchen or pocketed was far from assured. I saw quite a few illegal breaks, and I'd estimate that 10% of my breaks were illegal. Then again, Sky was able to solve this rack which is part of the reason he took 3rd at the US Open and won the DCC 9 ball, they used the same format. As I mentioned before he was racking and breaking with such consistency he made the 2 ball three rails in the side two breaks in a row.

It's really strange that we haven't fixed this yet. We could go one of a few ways. We could make it much harder to break the balls, or we could make it much easier and allow for a dead wing ball and then everyone can soft break in style and have an equal opportunity to convert on their breaks. At the US Open Bar Table championships the corner ball was so dead people shot the break like any other stop shot and played shape for the 1. At first I hated that, but it did make things fair and I grew to enjoy it.

I've always felt that a mandatory push out would take the break out of the game entirely and make the entire game a pure test of pool knowledge and execution. It would put so much play in the game that a race to 5 would have as much pool as a race to 9 today. But 9 ball is supposed to be a momentum game where people can string racks and play explosively, and a mandatory push out would kill that.

The solution isn't obvious. In the meantime as a player you just have to keep up on the best strategies and try to duplicate what the top players are doing. It is what it is.

I'm all for stringing racks ( both playing, tho not so much these days, and watching ), but I like the idea of a mandatory push as far as taking the rack / break out of the equation. I know I'm not alone ( though for the most part, it's us oldsters ) in thinking this deal with the rack and all it entails has gotten WAY out of hand. It might be worth it not seeing racks strung, at least in tournaments. It's absolutely ridiculous seeing a ref / opponent racking 10, 15 times before the breaker is "satisfied". DaVinci could've painted the Mona Lisa between some games these days.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like tin and jam said, the knowledge wasn't out there back in the day, like it is now.

Humans are inclined to judge yesterday's behaviors by today's standards.
 

1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As long as I've been around, there have been "discussions" between players about the rack in 9-Ball. For a long, long time we played loser racks and it was an opportunity for the loser to create a difficult (often loose) rack for the winner to break. Some guys became pretty adept at that.

Of course, there have always been certain players who made this more of a problem then others, just like there is today. But often enough, in important matches deep in a tournament I was forced to step in and mitigate racking problems with the players. Quite often I would put up a good rack and show them it could be done and tell them not to call me back to their table again. I really didn't want to be their rack boy, and we had too many tables going at the same time for me to stay solely by their table. Usually that worked, but not always. :wink:

We began to switch to winner racks and that helped for quite a while, until some guys became adept at "adjusting" the rack so they could always make the corner ball. Then the "discussions" began all over again. Next it was the Sardo rack and on and on until the present day. C'est la vie.

I think "deep in a tournament" match is acceptable to get a ref to rack the balls, but other than that lets go back to loser racks and hit the balls hard from the rail. We can put rubber back mali cloth back on the tables and make the game more exciting to watch.

This has been one of the major issues with pool. There are too many racks, rules, and regulations that are up in the air and vary from tournament and tournament, league to league. Imo, its been quite a hinder in the growth and advancement of the game. All games have one set of rules, generally.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1on1: they tried that, putting slow cloth on for a major tourney on tv. IPT 8-ball i think. it sucked.

these kind of good ol days arguments crop up quite often on this forum, perhaps mirroring the median age here. i'm surprised noone has suggested going back to clay balls yet

racking template, 9b on the spot, 3 balls to kitchen rule, alt break, ref racking and random ball pattern is the most fair way to play 9 ball imo. watching dechaine, orcullo or shaw inspect triangle racks is just as interminably boring as it is watching corey, orcullo or shane doing their pattern / tilting bs
 

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was taught in 1973 that the wing balls are wired in 9-ball. I agree that racking strategies have changed substantially since those days.
 

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem started with Simonis IMO. The wing balls were now wired, and by the mid 90s tournaments were coming up with obstacles such as the break box to try to eliminate them.



Example of play on slower cloth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4&t


I agree. I watched all those games. I mostly fast forwarded to each break. They were clearly shooting for the wing ball. To get it they had to absolutely crush the rack. Most of the time they either broke dry, lost the cueball, or fluked a different ball in. I also noticed that rarely did three balls pass the headstring even with them crushing it. I bet if AtLarge did break stats on this match it would have looked pathetic compared to today’s matches. Not to diss these legends. I think you’re right, the clothe is the main difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
Back in the day, when Buddy and Siegel and Efren and Johnny and Earl and Nick, etc. were the 9 Ball kings. Was there all this pissing and moaning about the rack? Did they have to have a certain rack and size pockets and neutral racker?

Did they match up with their own money or a backer and toss out some real cash in 9 Ball match ups? Or is this a new deal?

You never saw Jay Swanson back in the day, did you? He would hover around the opponent doing the racking, and hound him for at least five minutes before he was satisfied with the rack. And hardly a new deal, Earl did a lot of the same thing.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

All the best,
WW
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
The problem started with Simonis IMO. The wing balls were now wired, and by the mid 90s tournaments were coming up with obstacles such as the break box to try to eliminate them.

Example of play on slower cloth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4&t

The problem isn’t Simonis, IMO...
...in the action days, 70s, at the Rack in Detroit, we played on cloth that was faster than
760 Simonis, never mind the 860...late 60s, I played 9-ball on a carom cloth at Bakers in
Tampa....lotta places had cheap, slow cloth....but a lotta places had good cloth also.

There was such a thing as ‘mudracking’, but if a guy made a habit of it, his action became
a lot harder to get.
Some of those gaff racks didn’t do the job, either...I’ve broken loose racks ( let them go
‘cause I had a good thing) and sometimes made multiple balls off them.

I think, as it has been suggested, that Joe Tucker and the Sardo took all this to another level.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Notice one thing neither Buddy or Earl are doing? Checking the rack... and they're using a *triangle*! Man, they musta been realllyyyy stupid, huh? Guess they didn't know nuthin 'bout pool.

It's a wonder either of 'em could ht the end rail.

If you look at how often the 9 ball went in on those old matches, that is really all you need to know about rack skills and checking. People used to think making the 9 on the break was a "good shot" but for at least a decade we know better. Some matches the 9 shot in the corner several times a set, or would sit there for an early combo.

The Miz of all people was saying in his instruction videos and commentary that if you made a ball on the break you had your fingers crossed, and if the 9 did not move, the rack was bad. So yes, there was not too much looked at when it comes to racking or breaking 9 ball.
 
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