1949 Fats and Mosconi

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billinboston

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Always so curious as to how Mosconi was able to beat fats
Out of 250... 5 straight games of 1 pocket, When Mosconi never played the game and thought of it as nothing more than a gimmick game. Now from what I have read, fats might not have been the best player, but from readings.. he was at the top of his game at the time they played in the late 1940’s also at that time, he was suppose to be fantastic at banks ?
 
billinboston said:
Always so curious as to how Mosconi was able to beat fats
Out of 250... 5 straight games of 1 pocket, When Mosconi never played the game and thought of it as nothing more than a gimmick game. Now from what I have read, fats might not have been the best player, but from readings.. he was at the top of his game at the time they played in the late 1940’s also at that time, he was suppose to be fantastic at banks ?
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He couldn't carry Mosconi's case much less beat him. Fat's was more hustler than player. Mosconi would have beaten him at anything using a cue.
 
Not sure about that... Fats has beaten some top players for cash
And even with weight given.. he beat Ronnie Allen in 1970 !! He has beaten Ritchie Florence out of a bundle.. I mean... both of these were in ‘70.... so in 1949 i’m going to assume he was much much better. We all know how Mosconi ran hundreds of balls over and over
But... that makes him an automatic great one pocket player. So then... if Mosconi ever focused his whole career on one pocket... would the whole world of top 1 holers have been doomed ?
 
billinboston said:
Not sure about that... Fats has beaten some top players for cash
And even with weight given.. he beat Ronnie Allen in 1970 !! He has beaten Ritchie Florence out of a bundle.. I mean... both of these were in ‘70.... so in 1949 i’m going to assume he was much much better. We all know how Mosconi ran hundreds of balls over and over
But... that makes him an automatic great one pocket player. So then... if Mosconi ever focused his whole career on one pocket... would the whole world of top 1 holers have been doomed ?
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With Willie's shotmaking skills and strategy knowledge he would have been an absolute MONSTER at 1p if he played it regularly.
 
billinboston said:
Always so curious as to how Mosconi was able to beat fats
Out of 250... 5 straight games of 1 pocket, When Mosconi never played the game and thought of it as nothing more than a gimmick game. Now from what I have read, fats might not have been the best player, but from readings.. he was at the top of his game at the time they played in the late 1940’s also at that time, he was suppose to be fantastic at banks ?
Click to expand...

When I interview Evelyn, 6 weeks after fattys death, that was one of my scripted questions. When did he play his best. she said... 1940 till early 50's.
 
billinboston said:
Always so curious as to how Mosconi was able to beat fats
Out of 250... 5 straight games of 1 pocket, When Mosconi never played the game and thought of it as nothing more than a gimmick game. Now from what I have read, fats might not have been the best player, but from readings.. he was at the top of his game at the time they played in the late 1940’s also at that time, he was suppose to be fantastic at banks ?
Click to expand...


I have no doubt that Fat's had more knowledge about 1pocket as far as safety play, strategy and maybe even banks

But Mosconi was still the far superior pool player. All it took was one little mistake, one shot at a ball, and Mosconi was eight and out. Plus, the match between him and Fats did take place at Mosconi's home room, so on top of everything else there's that.

Lou Figueroa
 
Once again I have to agree with Lou here. Willie didn't like Fats for starters and was always motivated to beat him given the chance. Fats may have known more about One Pocket and been a good banker, but he was not in Willie's league as a pool player. Willie was a forerunner to Mizerak, both guys who played so great they could play any game.

Now if Fats had gotten a little weight then he might've had the best of it. Fats could have been laying down for 50 a game! If he got Willie to give him some weight and raise the bet I would have fully expected Fat's game to suddenly go up a couple of balls. He was a lot smarter about matching up and making money than Willie.
 
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From what I have heard, Fatty was 8 and out countless times in those days too. And with the knowledge of banks, and 1 pocket strategy... I just don’t see Mosconi as an easy winner ... not 5 straight at least
Supposedly Willie broke him of 250.00 and gave him 5 bucks for cab fare.
I talked to Willie in 1978 when I racked for him while he warmed up for an exhibition to open a billiards supply store in Stoughton, MA.
He ran 50 balls really fast.
Then he stopped... everyone applauded, and he said “ this is a silly game, I don’t get why anyone would want to pay me to play it folks “ lol
 
Sorry... I forgot, At the 1978 exhibition... I asked Willie if he thought Fats was any good, and he said “ well.. I would consider him to be a below average player, but he’s pretty good at playing banks and seems to have a good feel for angles... but, I beat him in the 40’s
And I would have said he was just ok as a player. He has beaten top players... but only when he can hustle them into a game “
 
From what I have heard, Fatty was 8 and out countless times in those days too. And with the knowledge of banks, and 1 pocket strategy... I just don’t see Mosconi as an easy winner ... not 5 straight at least
Supposedly Willie broke him of 250.00 and gave him 5 bucks for cab fare.
I talked to Willie in 1978 when I racked for him while he warmed up for an exhibition to open a billiards supply store in Stoughton, MA.
He ran 50 balls really fast.
Then he stopped... everyone applauded, and he said “ this is a silly game, I don’t get why anyone would want to pay me to play it folks “ lol
 
Well, the late Jimmy Fusco of Philadelphia told me that when Willie and Fats were going to play their TV match with One Pocket as one of the three disciplines, Willie was concerned enough that he insisted One Pocket be played last of the three, with the idea being it would be irrelevant to their overall challenge if Willie won the first two disciplines.

He also said Willie came to see Jimmy to get coached in One Pocket prior to that match.

Both of these comments from Jimmy give me the impression that Willie actually did have some genuine fear and/or respect for Fat's One Pocket game.
 
There are photos of Fats with huge wads of $1000 bills in the 1970s. I don't care what anyone here says, Fats pulling out money he won 40+ years earlier is pretty strong. A monster player has shoeboxes of cash tucked away for decades.
 
The question seems ludicrous when you just ponder Willie’s unmatched accomplishments and incredible
tournament records. Fats was great at entertainment and pool shooting but Willie was just incredible and
way beyond the other players of his era and likely to this day as well.
 
just some memories

Working from memory, Fats said that Willie didn't know anything about one pocket, he just kept going eight and out! You don't have to know much.

Both were well over the hill but Fats took some matches from Mosconi in the televised matches, I think won the overall once. Mosconi gave Fats his due, said it was the best he ever saw him play.

I also saw somewhere that during the series of television events, I think there were three, Willie finally realized it was a show and Willie and Fats were friendly off screen if not exactly friends. Definitely some bad blood early and Fats was perhaps the best in the world at sliding in the needle! I remember him getting Willie upset enough ragging him about no heart to gamble that Willie threw his wallet on the table and said to hell with the show, lets go right now or words to that effect. I think they could have shot a dozen or so of the match-ups between Willie and Fats, that was great TV.

Hu
 
Didn't that the match with both of them playing and with Howard Cosell on the mic supposedly did a bigger rating than the baseball world series?
 
The question is how many TV sets were even in use and then, how many would receive ABC Sports
relying on reception by only tv anntenae across the nation. And remember that World Series games
were largely day games when people were at work and relied on listening to the game on radio. Keep
in mind that the first televised night game of a World Series wasn’t until Game 4 of the 1971 Series.
 
ShootingArts said:
Working from memory, Fats said that Willie didn't know anything about one pocket, he just kept going eight and out! You don't have to know much.

Both were well over the hill but Fats took some matches from Mosconi in the televised matches, I think won the overall once. Mosconi gave Fats his due, said it was the best he ever saw him play.

I also saw somewhere that during the series of television events, I think there were three, Willie finally realized it was a show and Willie and Fats were friendly off screen if not exactly friends. Definitely some bad blood early and Fats was perhaps the best in the world at sliding in the needle! I remember him getting Willie upset enough ragging him about no heart to gamble that Willie threw his wallet on the table and said to hell with the show, lets go right now or words to that effect. I think they could have shot a dozen or so of the match-ups between Willie and Fats, that was great TV.

Hu
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When Willie won the first TV match he rushed over to Bill Cayton and demanded his check for $10,000 immediately. By the third match Willie had wised up and realized that Fatty was his meal ticket for these big checks he was getting. That caused him to view Fats with a new found fondness.

The part about throwing his wallet on the table in pre-match interviews is basically true. Fats was belittling Willie for not playing for money and only for trophies, and Willie took offense to that and lost his temper momentarily.

If anyone ever saw an early Fats exhibition in the 1960's, it included a routine about "Willie the Wop," a not so well disguised dig at Mosconi. In this routine Willie ends up miscuing on a ball straight in the side to lose the world championship. Fats turns this story into a long routine that leads up to the miscue. It was very demeaning to Mosconi and somehow after they started playing on TV Fats never used this routine in his exhibitions again. I will always believe this was agreed to before Mosconi would play Fats on TV.
 
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Wow!

Somehow I had never heard about or forgotten about the Willie the Wop routine. I can see where using that as a regular part of Fats' show would cause a deep seated grudge at the least on Willie's part. Willie was justifiably a very proud man. Aside from the pool angle WOP was a deadly insult to many Italians.

Hu



jay helfert said:
When Willie won the first TV match he rushed over to Bill Cayton and demanded his check for $10,000 immediately. By the third match Willie had wised up and realized that Fatty was his meal ticket for these big checks he was getting. That caused him to view Fats with a new found fondness.

The part about throwing his wallet on the table in pre-match interviews is basically true. Fats was belittling Willie for not playing for money and only for trophies, and Willie took offense to that and lost his temper momentarily.

If anyone ever saw an early Fats exhibition in the 1960's, it included a routine about "Willie the Wop," a not so well disguised dig at Mosconi. In this routine Willie ends up miscuing on a ball straight in the side to lose the world championship. Fats turns this story into a long routine that leads up to the miscue. It was very demeaning to Mosconi and somehow after they started playing on TV Fats never used this routine in his exhibitions again. I will always believe this was agreed to before Mosconi would play Fats on TV.
Click to expand...
 
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