Dragon Promotions virtual 14.1

[Dan White]

Straight pool is, indeed, more beautiful than nine ball or ten ball, but straight pool is very rarely contested. For me, all three games are pretty close to unwatchable against the ghost, and to use your analogy, I think I'd rather watch checkers than watch any of these games played against the ghost.

I grew up in the straight pool era and loved it, but the truth is that 9-ball and 10-ball ARE the center of the pool universe today. For every 14.1 event on the world pool calendar, there are probably over a hundred nine ball and ten ball events, No, it does not make one a shallow fan if they'd rather watch real head-to-head competition, and as straight pool offers almost none these days, it quite logically takes a back seat to rotation games in the eyes of almost every fan, this one included.

With so few straight pool events, why lament the fact that many of this generation of fans aren't very interested in or excited about the discipline? I am as disappointed as anybody that straight pool has fallen so far, but right now, the game has little to no presence in the pro pool scene, and Matt Poland's comments are perfectly reasonable if taken in context.

I'm kind of on the other end of the spectrum, Stu. I don't think about competition when I consider the "value" of each of the disciplines in pool. It just struck me as odd that a fan of the game wouldn't mind if arguably the best all around (and really the original game) simply disappeared. That doesn't sound like a serious fan to me. On the other hand, everybody has an opinion about whether competition in straight pool is better or worse than competition in the other disciplines.

I think this generation of fans, as you say, are missing an awful lot by not understanding or even knowing about straight pool.

 

[AtLarge]

... Ronnie also played nine ball at the Mosconi and eight ball when the IPT was around, His stats in pool, where records aren't kept, are largely unknown, ...

O'Sullivan played in the Mosconi Cup twice, 1996 and 1997. He won 2 of his 5 singles matches and 2 of his 4 doubles matches.

He played in just one IPT event, the 2006 North American Open 8-Ball Championship. He won 5 of his 13 matches (85 of his 171 games).

[Not that this is much in the way of stats.]

 

[sjm]

O'Sullivan played in the Mosconi Cup twice, 1996 and 1997. He won 2 of his 5 singles matches and 2 of his 4 doubles matches.

He played in just one IPT event, the 2006 North American Open 8-Ball Championship. He won 5 of his 13 matches (85 of his 171 games).

[Not that this is much in the way of stats.]

Yup, I was lucky enough to be there in Las Vegas when Ronnie played in the IPT, and enjoyed watching him even though he wasn't very successful.

 

[sjm]

I think this generation of fans, as you say, are missing an awful lot by not understanding or even knowing about straight pool.

Undeniably so. The game has all but disappeared and if it only lives on as a practice game, it's already dead from the vantage point of the game's fans. A renaissance of straight pool would be something to celebrate, but it's not easy to imagine.

 

[Dan Harriman]

I consider myself a billiards enthusiast and avid local player. I love watching pool. I love participating in this community. I look forward to traveling to sweat more professional events. I admire the things 14.1 can teach me by practicing it. But honestly I have zero interest in it from a competitive perspective (personal or professional). The game could disappear entirely and I wouldn’t bat an eye. I suspect it’s already dead and all the effort put into it today is merely an abominable act of necromancy. My initial opinion was that the Dragon event should stop calling itself a World Championship for integrity sake. I get people being upset at WPA for enforcing its role in the industry. But maybe the real answer is to let 14.1 die. Maybe what all this is really suggesting is that WPA should just stop recognizing 14.1 as a discipline entirely. Thorsten can go ahead and compete in a fake 14.1 “world championship” and get paid and it can mean as much to the industry as him winning a “world championship” in bumper pool or skittle pool.

14.1 is alive and well in other Countries, in Germany they have many 14.1 leagues for junior players and also in Asia - still very big in local Hall's. So for u to say it's simply dead is just a bitter statement. If u have zero interest in 14.1 - I can only assume yer posting about it for some sick political reason.

 

[Dan Harriman]

I would like to congratulate Joshua Filler (Germany) and his wife for their new 14.1 World Record of 211 - husband and wife team - very cool. Does anyone know if there is a video for sale?

 

[Dan Harriman]

Semantics.

Optimists see the glass as half full. Pessimists see the glass as half empty. Either way it's not enough water.

Well prepare to empty yer cup, here is some cool water - I was honored to have represented USA in the Mosconi Cup (England). I can assure u little worn out road runner - when I adorned the USA flag vest - it was more like a Sport than that of a game - we Won the Cup as well. Thanks for the philosophy lesson ha ha - water = sign of life.

 

[Dan White]

Undeniably so. The game has all but disappeared and if it only lives on as a practice game, it's already dead from the vantage point of the game's fans. A renaissance of straight pool would be something to celebrate, but it's not easy to imagine.

You never know. The pendulum swings in both directions so maybe in 200 years straight pool will be the game.

 

[sjm]

I would like to congratulate Joshua Filler (Germany) and his wife for their new 14.1 World Record of 211 - husband and wife team - very cool. Does anyone know if there is a video for sale?

How do you know it's the record? For instance, back in the day, George Breedlove and Jeanette Lee were certainly capable of 211. What was the previous record?

 

[Cameron Smith]

Pool has never kept stats, which have always been on the game's periphery, and that was true even when there were tours, The real value of a tour with a ranking system is continuity, and few, if any, knew the rankings back in the days of the PPPA (the last significant tour that played straight pool, gone since 1986) or the PBT/Camel Tour or UPA Tours (the last two major nine ball tours in America) both gone for many years.
The primary value of rankings in our sport was always for seeding, which some feel is inappropriate and unfair. The primary function of a tour is continuity, chiefly for the players, and to a lesser extent for those who are affiliated with the tour as a proprietor, sponsor, or fan. In this sense, a good pool tour is like a concert tour. If you play this venue this year, there's a good chance you'll play it again next year.

Ronnie's stats are interesting because they are in snooker, the game at which he earns a living, and he plays a sport with an audience that is sufficiently large that detailed record keeping fits within the budget of the governing bodies. Ronnie also played nine ball at the Mosconi and eight ball when the IPT was around, His stats in pool, where records aren't kept, are largely unknown, but that's OK, because neither 8-ball nor 9-ball ever made up more than a small portion of his income from cuesports.

Similarly, Thorsten Hohmann, far and away the best straight pool of the last fifteen years, does not earn his cuesports living at 14.1. Straight pool has not been a significant source of income for pro pool players in over 30 years. How many 100 ball runs he, or any other player, has is of little import. What difference does it make? All that matters is what he has won. Runs only matter to the extent that they produce victories. Other than in the one year in which the IPT was around, Thorsten has earned most of his cuesports living at nine ball. How many five packs has he run in his career? In my observation, the five pack in pro competition is rarer than the 100 ball run. How many 5-packs has Van Boening run? Nobody knows that, either, despite the fact that Shane is the best American 9-ball player of the last fifteen years. All that matters to his fans is how many victories and titles those 5-packs have produced, and his competitive record is well documented and known.

Over the past 50 years, stats have not had a very significant place in pool, and I don't think either is tied to the popularity, or lack thereof, of either straight pool or nine ball.

One of my academic interests is what motivates and engages people. One of the things I’ve learned throughout my career is that to motivate and engage people you need to have several different strategies identified that encompasses the range of things people react positively to. I apply this to my thinking in pool. People watch sport for various reasons and one such reason is the stories and rich discussions about their game(s) of choice.

Professional Tours do more than just provide a sense of consistency. They create traditions, they help develop those stories that I mention partly through the stats and record keeping. Thinking about last years snooker season, the big highlights were things like Judd Trumps 100 centuries in a season and winning 6 ranking titles in a season. Stephen Maguire broke an almost decade long drought by winning a ranking title in the summer. Those were all exciting topics of discussion because of the diligent record keeping of the WST. It also is the type of stuff that gets my wife to sit and watch with me.

Fargo is a great example actually of how powerful this type of thing can be. The amount of discussions that have been generated by talking about this or that players Fargo rating has been really interesting. We even got the Siming Chen/Donnie Mills match because of it.

I’m not suggesting that this is the answer to pools woes. It’s just one small piece of a much larger puzzle. Some people of course just want to watch pool, but stories about breaking records, winning ranking titles, attaining this rank or that rank is what can draw some additional people in. It’s all about covering your bases with respect to what engages and motivates people.

I understand that this has played a small role within the game in the past, but that doesn’t mean it should always. I also don’t want to suggest that pool doesn’t have stories or rich discussion, it does. But I just think a more fleshed out and structured tour would help. Easier said than do of course.

 

[sjm]

One of my academic interests is what motivates and engages people. One of the things I’ve learned throughout my career is that to motivate and engage people you need to have several different strategies identified that encompasses the range of things people react positively to. I apply this to my thinking in pool. People watch sport for various reasons and one such reason is the stories and rich discussions about their game(s) of choice.

Professional Tours do more than just provide a sense of consistency. They create traditions, they help develop those stories that I mention partly through the stats and record keeping. Thinking about last years snooker season, the big highlights were things like Judd Trumps 100 centuries in a season and winning 6 ranking titles in a season. Stephen Maguire broke an almost decade long drought by winning a ranking title in the summer. Those were all exciting topics of discussion because of the diligent record keeping of the WST. It also is the type of stuff that gets my wife to sit and watch with me.

Fargo is a great example actually of how powerful this type of thing can be. The amount of discussions that have been generated by talking about this or that players Fargo rating has been really interesting. We even got the Siming Chen/Donnie Mills match because of it.

I’m not suggesting that this is the answer to pools woes. It’s just one small piece of a much larger puzzle. Some people of course just want to watch pool, but stories about breaking records, winning ranking titles, attaining this rank or that rank is what can draw some additional people in. It’s all about covering your bases with respect to what engages and motivates people.

I understand that this has played a small role within the game in the past, but that doesn’t mean it should always. I also don’t want to suggest that pool doesn’t have stories or rich discussion, it does. But I just think a more fleshed out and structured tour would help. Easier said than do of course.

Thank you for a most insightful post.

 

[MattPoland]

14.1 is alive and well in other Countries, in Germany they have many 14.1 leagues for junior players and also in Asia - still very big in local Hall's. So for u to say it's simply dead is just a bitter statement. If u have zero interest in 14.1 - I can only assume yer posting about it for some sick political reason.

Sick political reason? Let’s skip the hyperbole and converse like adults.

AZ Billiards is primarily forum of US pool enthusiasts with a smattering of an international audience. Indicating I have zero interest in 14.1 was just to provide a stark example of what honestly is the predominant sentiment in the US. I don’t have experience with how organized or popular 14.1 is in other countries. You pointing out that there are pockets of it organized in some regions is news to me and a welcome contribution to the discussion.

I think the question I pose is still relevant. Is interest in 14.1 strong enough worldwide to ever accomplish a consistent run of proper regional qualifiers that manifest into a legitimate world championship to be held? If not, why should the WPA try to regulate and enforce 14.1 as a discipline?

 

[Positively Ralf]

The future of 14.1 in america imo lies in the hot bed(or what is left of them) cities that love 14.1 as an amateur game. Someone really needs to consider restarting the amateur championship for the game and work from there. That is how snooker and 3 cushion are handled here. Then see if you can get the winner of that tournament an entry into the american 14.1 championship.

this event, even though i support it, has been on its death bed for years now. charlie doesn't seem to ever want to let go of whatever grudge he has and the CSI group looks to not even care about the US Open anymore.

regardless, 14.1 is as niche a pocket billiards game as there is right now. and its a shame as i love watching it at the highest levels, but what can you do?

 

[Dan Harriman]

Sick political reason? Let’s skip the hyperbole and converse like adults.

AZ Billiards is primarily forum of US pool enthusiasts with a smattering of an international audience. Indicating I have zero interest in 14.1 was just to provide a stark example of what honestly is the predominant sentiment in the US. I don’t have experience with how organized or popular 14.1 is in other countries. You pointing out that there are pockets of it organized in some regions is news to me and a welcome contribution to the discussion.

I think the question I pose is still relevant. Is interest in 14.1 strong enough worldwide to ever accomplish a consistent run of proper regional qualifiers that manifest into a legitimate world championship to be held? If not, why should the WPA try to regulate and enforce 14.1 as a discipline?

Ok I am an adult, the real answer is not to let 14.1 perish - or even mention that as if it were an option - for not showing proof of the 626 claim. Other countries are not pockets and what u say is not the predominant sentiment in the USA - never will be. Kinda funny how when 'the people' ask to see proof of such a grandiose claim we receive answers like - "oh maybe we should just let 14.1 die"? When need for truth is expressed - we get answers like yours.I have no interest in any of yer questions or distractions, if u think Straight Pool should perish - so to does j.s and charlie think the need to show their phony 626 video should perish as well - but until they show unedited proof - much doubt will linger - as it should. I will tell u both professionaly and personally - if u have zero interest in competing or practicing 14.1 - u should try to represent yerselfee' in another thread.

 

[MattPoland]

Ok I am an adult, the real answer is not to let 14.1 perish - or even mention that as if it were an option - for not showing proof of the 626 claim. Other countries are not pockets and what u say is not the predominant sentiment in the USA - never will be. Kinda funny how when 'the people' ask to see proof of such a grandiose claim we receive answers like - "oh maybe we should just let 14.1 die"? When need for truth is expressed - we get answers like yours.I have no interest in any of yer questions or distractions, if u think Straight Pool should perish - so to does j.s and charlie think the need to show their phony 626 video should perish as well - but until they show unedited proof - much doubt will linger - as it should. I will tell u both professionaly and personally - if u have zero interest in competing or practicing 14.1 - u should try to represent yerselfee' in another thread.

I’ll make up a number and tell me I’m wrong. If I gather every person in the country that has either entered a pool tournament, gambled playing pool, or played in a pool league within the last two years, over 95% of them have not played a single game of 14.1 in the last five years.

Am I wrong?

 

[Dan Harriman]

I’ll make up a number and tell me I’m wrong. If I gather every person in the country that has either entered a pool tournament, gambled playing pool, or played in a pool league within the last two years, over 95% of them have not played a single game of 14.1 in the last five years.

Am I wrong?

yes those stats are simply conjecture USA is a small part of global populace, so again I am looking at the larger picture world wide - ur thinking in the box. In most major cities they are still playing 14.1 leagues, I ran a 14.1 league here in MO for a few yrs. Please stop trying to put 14.1 into yer personal negative light or demographic just cause were asking to see proof of the '626 claim' - it's making u look like yer a failure. Trying to belittle Mosconi's accomplishment - or saying maybe the game should die will get u no where, it really just shows a sign of extreme bitterness from yer end - maybe u never could run 50 and are just mad at the game? If so then yer in good company, there are many ignorant souls out there in great wide open. Maybe it's best that machines trying to promote fake news - Perish. jmho.

 

[MattPoland]

yes those stats are simply conjecture USA is a small part of global populace, so again I am looking at the larger picture world wide - ur thinking in the box. In most major cities they are still playing 14.1 leagues, I ran a 14.1 league here in MO for a few yrs. Please stop trying to put 14.1 into yer personal negative light or demographic just cause were asking to see proof of the '626 claim' - it's making u look like yer a failure. Trying to belittle Mosconi's accomplishment - or saying maybe the game should die will get u no where, it really just shows a sign of extreme bitterness from yer end - maybe u never could run 50 and are just mad at the game? If so then yer in good company, there are many ignorant souls out there in great wide open. Maybe it's best that machines trying to promote fake news - Perish. jmho.

You know, I never said much of anything about the 626 and I never brought in any of the name calling you keep falling to. I don’t care about you asking for proof. I think the fact that Schmidt hasn’t presented his video is just a sign that he made a big accomplishment that was akin to a tree falling in the woods with nobody to hear it. He sat on it too long and now it’s a dead product. Go ahead. Keep clamoring for it. I have no issue with that.

My only contention is whether WPA should bother wasting its time policing Dragon Promotions holding a fake world championship when neither the WPA nor the 14.1 community is capable of holding a legitimate 14.1 world championship. It’s in that spirit I call 14.1 dead. It was just a little statement for color and you seem to have gotten so hung up on that one phrase that you lost sight of the actual discussion.

 

[Dan White]

You know, I never said much of anything about the 626 and I never brought in any of the name calling you keep falling to. I don’t care about you asking for proof. I think the fact that Schmidt hasn’t presented his video is just a sign that he made a big accomplishment that was akin to a tree falling in the woods with nobody to hear it. He sat on it too long and now it’s a dead product. Go ahead. Keep clamoring for it. I have no issue with that.

My only contention is whether WPA should bother wasting its time policing Dragon Promotions holding a fake world championship when neither the WPA nor the 14.1 community is capable of holding a legitimate 14.1 world championship. It’s in that spirit I call 14.1 dead. It was just a little statement for color and you seem to have gotten so hung up on that one phrase that you lost sight of the actual discussion.

I'm not a lawyer but I do know that if a company does not protect its trademark then it can lose the right to do so. For instance, many years ago I had a product called LubeStar. After about a year we were contacted by Texaco saying that they are known as "The star of the American road" and our use of Star was an infringement (or whatever the legal term is). Instead of going to court they offered us $6000 to change the name. We did so pretty quickly. Our next products were IBN and Appel products,

The point is that if WPA ignores Charlie and the straight pool event actually becomes something huge then WPA might have lost the ability to profit from it because they didn't protect their sanctioning rights early on.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... My only contention is whether WPA should bother wasting its time policing Dragon Promotions holding a fake world championship when neither the WPA nor the 14.1 community is capable of holding a legitimate 14.1 world championship. ...

I think that the American Straight Pool Championship (Peter Burrows' event) comes closest to qualifying as the current world championship. In the past it has lacked a significant number of Chinese players, but other than that it has had a very strong international field for a while.

 

[kkdanamatt]

The American Straight Pool Championship has indeed attracted a very formidable field in the last few years.
This year's 14.1 event, piggy-backed onto the 2021 International 9-Ball Championships, hopefully will include some Asian players.
Does anyone know who are the Asian pool players who might enter both the International 9-Ball and the American 14.1 Championships?