Help with cue tip contact point.

[dquarasr]

I could use some help. I am trying to apply Mark Wilson’s chapters 3-6. His orthodox approach appeals very strongly to how I learn. I suppose it's time to open up to criticism here.

Historically, the impact point on the CB is right of intended. Mark’s alignment, stance, and elbow position have improved this dramatically. I have had to raise my elbow considerably compared to what I have been doing historically. And it has indeed resulted in reduction of my tendency to drop my elbow and swing it away from my body, which has mostly cured my impact point going right.

I understand it’s premature for me to be worried about it, but I have been trying to apply draw on a straight-in shot. Mark’s orthodoxy is helping. But, I am perplexed.

Please refer to the photos. EDIT: OK, they didn't load in this order, but the attachment file names are descriptive. Below shows the chronology:

1 – Addressing the CB on my last practice stroke. The tip would ostensibly contact the CB slightly above the lowest draw point, which is how it looks from my stance. Note my elbow position.

2 – The actual stroke, just prior to impact.

3 – The actual stroke, at impact.

4 – The CB showing the actual impact point significantly higher than intended point. You can see the red chalk mark well above the contact circle's bottom boundary. I believe my elbow is pretty close to where I start.

5 – The tip of the cue after the shot.

This shot resulted in a miscue. I cannot understand why this resulted in a miscue when the CB was struck well above the lowest allowable point, per Jim Rempe’s training CB.

This is an Adams cue of unknown vintage, with a Medium hardness tip, don’t know the brand but was installed by a knowledgeable technician at my local hall.

Any insights on why I am getting miscues is appreciated. Also, even though I am aiming quite low on the CB, my typical impact point is higher than intended, and when it does not miscue, I the CB is barely spinning backwards on a shot with CB three diamonds from OB on a 9-ft table. Insights as why the impact point is higher than on practice strokes would also be appreciated.

 

[evergruven]

a quick observation/question: your tip looks a bit flat- is it?
a good/bad tip won't make your stroke any better
but I think you're wise to consider equipment as a variable

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Any insights on why I am getting miscues is appreciated. ...

It may or may not apply to you, but.... I had a student who had red cloth to match his team's colors. When we got to the draw lesson, he miscued. I tried to show him where to hit the ball. I miscued. We got other red chalk. We continued to miscue. Evidently there was no good, red chalk to be found in our area, even from good brands. He changed to a cloth color that was OK for blue chalk.

So, get yourself a piece of blue chalk from the pool hall. An old piece will do. Put the cue ball on a piece of paper so you don't get blue chalk on your red cloth. See if that helps.

 

[dquarasr]

Thanks for the responses.

a quick observation/question: your tip looks a bit flat- is it?
a good/bad tip won't make your stroke any better
but I think your wise to consider equipment as a variable

Thanks for the responses.

Too flat? Nickel rather than dime: Left to right: Huebler, Meucci, Adams. I miscue a little bit less with the Meucci than the Adams, and it is a wee bit rounder than the Adams.

 

[dquarasr]

It may or may not apply to you, but.... I had a student who had red cloth to match his team's colors. When we got to the draw lesson, he miscued. I tried to show him where to hit the ball. I miscued. We got other red chalk. We continued to miscue. Evidently there was no good, red chalk to be found in our area, even from good brands. He changed to a cloth color that was OK for blue chalk.

So, get yourself a piece of blue chalk from the pool hall. An old piece will do. Put the cue ball on a piece of paper so you don't get blue chalk on your red cloth. See if that helps.

I tried a piece of blue chalk. No real difference.

Any ideas about my other question, why my impact point is still well above where I'm aiming on the CB?

 

[dquarasr]

P.S. The red chalk I use is brand Silver Cup Chalk, Macon Ga,, don't know how old. The blue I tried is Master (amazing how we accumulate chalk from pool halls without even trying, innit?)

 

[FranCrimi]

It looks to me like you're raising your upper arm in your back swing and then lowering it during your forward stroke which raises the tip up higher at impact than at address. Study your grip hand's height from the rail in each of the photos. Regardless of the angle, it must remain the same in the back stroke and forward stroke. You're changing that angle while you're in motion.

Oh and BTW, that tip looks a bit smooth. It could use a bit of a shaping and roughing. And clean the shaft and ferrule. It'll feel better going through your hands and better visually.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A quick way to know if you're hitting near (but not past) the miscue limit on the CB is to use a striped ball as your "cue ball" with the stripe horizontal - check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you're hitting on or very near the bottom edge of the stripe (the stripe's about 1/2 the diameter of the ball, so its edge is about halfway from center to edge of the CB - where the miscue limit is).

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

+1 for the rock hard glazed tip. Rough that bad boy up and embed some chalk in there.

My old player has a rock hard tip, and I would need to pick at it every few hundred shots to get it to hold chalk. I have a pretty straight stroke and don't tend to aim to the miscue limit. However I'd miscue when the tip got to the condition of yours in the photo.

 

[dquarasr]

It looks to me like you're raising your upper arm in your back swing and then lowering it during your forward stroke which raises the tip up higher at impact than at address. Study your grip hand's height from the rail in each of the photos. Regardless of the angle, it must remain the same in the back stroke and forward stroke. You're changing that angle while you're in motion.

Oh and BTW, that tip looks a bit smooth. It could use a bit of a shaping and roughing. And clean the shaft and ferrule. It'll feel better going through your hands and better visually.

Thanks. I am really working on keeping my shoulder quiet but as much as I try I notice I'm still dropping it, even if slightly. I'll continue to work on that.

I do rough up the tip but obviously not often enough. I'll try that.

 

[dquarasr]

A quick way to know if you're hitting near (but not past) the miscue limit on the CB is to use a striped ball as your "cue ball" with the stripe horizontal - check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you're hitting on or very near the bottom edge of the stripe (the stripe's about 1/2 the diameter of the ball, so its edge is about halfway from center to edge of the CB - where the miscue limit is).

pj
chgo

Thanks, Patrick. I'm using Jim Rempe's training CB, photo in the original post. Yes, I clean the ball every shot, then position it so I can see where I am contacting it. My impact point is higher than I am intending, yet still miscuing even if I'm not approaching the marked miscue limit per the training CB. Baffling to some degree.

 

[dquarasr]

+1 for the rock hard glazed tip. Rough that bad boy up and embed some chalk in there.

My old player has a rock hard tip, and I would need to pick at it every few hundred shots to get it to hold chalk. I have a pretty straight stroke and don't tend to aim to the miscue limit. However I'd miscue when the tip got to the condition of yours in the photo.

Ditto my prevous response. I'll be more attentive to roughing up the tips on my cues as I continue to practice. Thanks.

 

[sparkle84]

Thanks for the responses.


Thanks for the responses.

Too flat? Nickel rather than dime: Left to right: Huebler, Meucci, Adams. I miscue a little bit less with the Meucci than the Adams, and it is a wee bit rounder than the Adams.

You have a lot of things going on here. I quoted this particular post mainly because of the picture of 3 different cues/tips and your comment about miscuing. +2 about the condition of the tip(s). I've never used anything other than Master chalk so have no opinion/advice about red chalk. Bob may very well be correct in his assertion that it's junk. Color/type aside the close up photo of the tip on the Adams cue clearly shows very poor chalk coverage.
"Knowledgeable technician at my local hall" If that's the case (and I'm not saying it's not) then I'd suggest going back to him and getting a little tutorial on how to groom and care for your tip.
As for miscuing, once you get your equipment straightened out, if you're still miscuing often then there's an underlying problem which you'll need to get some help diagnosing/fixing before going any further. I'm kind of guessing here but when I say "miscuing often" for your level of play I'd say maybe once every 50-100 shots or so. Somewhere in that range?
Also, pick one cue and stick with it for awhile. Switching back and forth will slow progress.
As for the tip placement thing I'm having trouble seeing what's happening just from the photos. Video would be better. Not that I think she's wrong but I'm not seeing what Fran's seeing.
I can discern a little from the photos. Ist off, if I'm seeing it correctly, the chalk mark on the CB looks to be low enough to generate some draw providing you have good speed/acceleration into the CB.
Take a look at photos at impact/just before impact. IMO the position/angle of your right hand/arm in the 2nd photo is actually where it should be when at CB impact. This indicates to me you may be decelerating as you hit the CB?
All else aside, my initial advice would be to shorten your bridge to tip length 2-4 inches.

 

[straightline]

What's your grip hand doing? With me, there's a force/accuracy limit on my stroke that certain shots exceed. If I'm not careful on long draw shots, I'll attempt to stroke in this zone (beyond the limit) and kill the ball - or the whole shot. I'm currently experimenting with a fully articulated delivery - elbow, wrist, and fingers which at least gets me to my precision/force limit.

 

[dquarasr]

You have a lot of things going on here. I quoted this particular post mainly because of the picture of 3 different cues/tips and your comment about miscuing. +2 about the condition of the tip(s). I've never used anything other than Master chalk so have no opinion/advice about red chalk. Bob may very well be correct in his assertion that it's junk. Color/type aside the close up photo of the tip on the Adams cue clearly shows very poor chalk coverage.
"Knowledgeable technician at my local hall" If that's the case (and I'm not saying it's not) then I'd suggest going back to him and getting a little tutorial on how to groom and care for your tip.
As for miscuing, once you get your equipment straightened out, if you're still miscuing often then there's an underlying problem which you'll need to get some help diagnosing/fixing before going any further. I'm kind of guessing here but when I say "miscuing often" for your level of play I'd say maybe once every 50-100 shots or so. Somewhere in that range?
Also, pick one cue and stick with it for awhile. Switching back and forth will slow progress.
As for the tip placement thing I'm having trouble seeing what's happening just from the photos. Video would be better. Not that I think she's wrong but I'm not seeing what Fran's seeing.
I can discern a little from the photos. Ist off, if I'm seeing it correctly, the chalk mark on the CB looks to be low enough to generate some draw providing you have good speed/acceleration into the CB.
Take a look at photos at impact/just before impact. IMO the position/angle of your right hand/arm in the 2nd photo is actually where it should be when at CB impact. This indicates to me you may be decelerating as you hit the CB?
All else aside, my initial advice would be to shorten your bridge to tip length 2-4 inches.

Yes, I probably do have a lot of things going on. As I said in my original post, I am premature in trying this shot while I am training to groove my stroke by following Mark Wilson's suggestions. I admit I have not put in the weeks Mark suggests, yet. I tried posting the entire vid, but it was to large to upload.

The tech did not shape my tip. I did that all on my own, with the misguided thought that a flatter tip would result in less deflection. I fully own that issue and will endeavor to reshape my tips and learn to deal with any deflection as a result.

I don't miscue every 50-100 shots. While I am drilling on this straight in three-diamond distance shot, I miscue probably every fourth or fifth shot, which is why I asked for help. I'll try shortening my bridge length. I have noticed it seems to help when attempting draw.

I think at this point, what I need to do is FORGET ABOUT THIS PROBLEM, and do what Mark suggests: get comfortable with stance, alignment, aim, and stroke before I attempt advancing my game.

I appreciate the feedback, and I definitely need to learn patience not to put the cart before the horse. It's a process . . . . Thanks for the comments.

 

[straightline]

Oh and I've found Silvercup to be very abrasive. After 30 or so hrs of casual play it would wear out my WB tips. I now carry Master with me.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks. I am really working on keeping my shoulder quiet but as much as I try I notice I'm still dropping it, even if slightly. I'll continue to work on that.

I do rough up the tip but obviously not often enough. I'll try that.

It's okay to drop your shoulder in the forward motion as long as you know how to roll your grip hand to keep the angle of attack constant. Once you change that angle in mid-stroke, you risk changing the tip position on contact. I prefer to try to keep a fixed shoulder when I am trying to draw the cue ball. I allow a slight angle because it's really not possible to keep the cue level that low on the cue ball, especially when the cue extends past a rail.

 

[dquarasr]

It's okay to drop your shoulder in the forward motion as long as you know how to roll your grip hand to keep the angle of attack constant. Once you change that angle in mid-stroke, you risk changing the tip position on contact. I prefer to try to keep a fixed shoulder when I am trying to draw the cue ball. I allow a slight angle because it's really not possible to keep the cue level that low on the cue ball, especially when the cue extends past a rail.

Yes, I've noticed that the only way I can get WAY down on the shot when I keep my elbow up is to get WAY down with my knees, which is incredibly uncomfortable. I've decided (at least for now) that it's OK to have the back of the cue raised maybe 1" from its lowest possible point, so I am not contorting my body to get all the way down to the rail with the cue. I broke my neck in 2010, and it's hard to put my head in the position to look down the cue when I am as low as possible. Even 1" above optimum eases the pressure on my neck, and I have found so far that I am miscuing less with a *slight* elevation of the cue when attempting draw, only because I am not fighting the stance as much.

SO much more time at the table is warranted and will be invested in the coming months.

No work on this tonight. Groundhog Day 2021 was not kind to us. Our 16-year-old 40-lb terrier mix crossed the rainbow bridge this afternoon.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm using Jim Rempe's training CB, photo in the original post.
the marked miscue limit per the training CB.

Where is the marked miscue limit on the Rempe ball? The limit is commonly understood to be halfway from center to edge of the cue ball, like the blue circle below, but I don't see any mark there...?

EDIT: I found a pic online of a Rempe ball with more lines (is that the other side of the ball?). #3 is the miscue limit (see below)

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

Not an instructor so I won't attempt to evaluate your stroke or mechanics (other than saying the tip looks very low on impact, probably past the miscue limit) but your tip looks very devoid of chalk, I understand this is after the shot, but it also looks very glazed over. Do you have any kind of routine for dressing your tips? How often do you do it?

I play with hard tips and found this post very useful, it's about seating the chalk. I had played for decades and never heard of this, but it immediately improved my chalk retention. Between that post and trying different tools for dressing the tip, I got my tips to hold chalk much better. Even after a break shot, you shouldn't really see leather, unless it miscued. If it miscued, it's time to dress/de-glaze the tip so chalk will stick again. For a hard tip I find that more aggressive tools do a better job, something like the "Brad Scuffer" does a good job, but it's very coarse, so use it sparingly and don't try to start any fires . Kind of a light twist with light pressure, with the goal being to de-glaze and very very slightly lift the fibers, not to grind away material. The other thing that works for me is emery cloth, the grit that they sell in the plumbing isle at the hardware store. Emery cloth tends to "cut" better than other sandpapers and doesn't lose the grit off the paper as easily. A small square of it will last for a year in your case. Sorry if I'm giving too much info, but I just like to get the info out there in case anyone is having similar problems that I ran into. For initial shaping, I like the Tweeten metal tip trimmer. It's inexpensive and does a good job. The particular tapper I use to seat the chalk is the Porper Prik Stik.

Since you tried blue Masters, that helps eliminate this, but personally I find Silver Cup not great, I don't like how it coats and it seems to contribute to miscues, you're mileage may vary.

EDIT: Sorry to hear about your pup, my condolences on your loss.