Center Pocket Music, the long-awaited CTE Pro One book, by Stan Shuffett.

Funny that you don't post Stan's rebuttal? Almost like you deliberately don't want to present both sides to the audience.

As for your shitty pretzel comment......no, no pretzel here. I am fully clear as to what I think and my reasoning. When better incontrovertible reasoning is presented then I accept it and change my mind. You have been completely unable to change my mind on this subject as I have found every single one of your criticisms to be lacking in both logic and sincerity. You have a tendency to extrapolate conclusions from inadequate, faulty and disingenuously presented data.

You are quite literally stalking me around this forum trying desperately to get me to comment on your "video" critique. Sorry Dan, I took up this topic like 8 years ago or so and made a couple videos on it. I am on board with Stan on this one in that CTE accounts for cut-induced-throw OR that CIT isn't as a big a factor as you think it is.

Set up some tests to collect usable data on this. I can think of at least three or four ways to test your claims but it seems as if you want me to do your work for you. Here is how this works. Instructor A says that using XYZ system will produce x-results. Students, a-z claim that use of XYZ method does produce x-results. Critic B says x-results are impossible using XYZ method. Who has the burden of proof here?

To me, in this situation the burden of proof is on the critic. The criteria for "works" is whether or not the task can be completed accurately and consistently. So when that is demonstrated it is satisfied well enough for practical usage.

If Critic B wants to dispute results then the critic should have a way to show the validity of that dispute. As I said I can think of several ways to set up a test that would likely show whether you claim is correct or not but I have no desire to share them with you. Not because I think your claim will be verified but because I have come to the point where I really don't like you and feel that your participation in these discussions isn't to help this sport but is instead a personal trolling exercise intended to discredit all those who speak positively about CTE.
Dr. Dave has a number of good throw videos, one of which I contributed to. Throw exists and will be a problem if you don't take care of it. It most likely will not be a problem for a shot two diamonds from a 5 inch pocket.

I addressed Stan's non rebuttal rebuttal in the original thread where I posted my video. All of my relevant comments are there, fully supported and waiting for a counter argument that actually uses science, rather than comments like, "I don't know, I just never really think about throw so it is a non issue for me." Let's forget whose responsibility it is do to what. Someone makes a video making a claim. Someone else believes there is a mistake and posts his own video explaining what he thinks. In a normal back and forth "scientific" discussion there would be a back and forth of critical comments in which some conclusions among willing participants could be made. The process pretty much stalled after I commented on Stan's rebuttal because the CTE people shrugged their shoulders and moved on. If you want to call someone disingenuous you could start there. Here is the original discussion, at risk of being labeled a stalker again:

 
Not doing the religious-insult thing anymore right?
I'm not the one who brought it up. I rarely use that language because you guys go bezerk. I favor Stan's words, which are that it is phenomena that was never meant to be.
 
Dan, your apology is not sincere. You are not sincere. I wish that you were.
I said I would take the post down and you said it was not necessary. I thought the issue was over. I do have to say it is remarkable that you consider my comments mocking (which they were, while making a point at the same time) but you can bring up PJ's fidgeting on your secret video and act like it is simply relaying information and not mocking.
 
I already addressed this the first time you brought it up. Again you don't allow for any other possible explanation for something you saw. You come to a single conclusion and that's the only one you will consider.

Fallacy? What part of burden of proof is on the accuser do you not understand?

If I say your name is Chris Williams and you are wanted by the FBI are you then required to prove me wrong? No, you can completely ignore my claims. The burden of proof is on me. If I say I can jump ten feet into the air and hover then the burden of proof is on me. If I do it and then you say it's not possible then the burden of proof is on you. That's why James Randi has a million dollar prize if anyone can prove that they have psychic powers. I have stood up a dozen times to put my money where my mouth is. Not a single one of you has been willing to do the same.

If you want to discuss whatever proof that you think Stan should provide then you should talk to Stan. The proof that it is objective is CLEAR. The idea that it is a professional aiming system stems from the fact that it is something that works for professional players and, just speculating here, that it produces a repeatable accurate shot line when used correctly as professionals are likely to be able to do and thus it is a system suitable for the professional level. As for the "lost to mankind" snide remark.....do you see anyone else diving into the subject as deeply as Stan has? Without his content we may very well have lost the most enduring connection to Hal's work. I don't think it would unreasonable for Stan to say that if that is what he said. Doesn't matter though because the content now exists. Nothing new and positive about CTE was likely to come from you or your fellow critics so it is fair to say that the ONLY reason you are here is because of Stan at this point as you have made it a mission to knock him and the work he is doing.
Regarding the bold, apparently I'm so eager to hear another possible explanation that I'm stalking you on the issue. See my other comments in another post.

Burden of proof? Think about it this way:

Scientists say they have achieved cold fusion in their lab. The burden of proof is on them to disclose their methods so that the experiment can be duplicated. If nobody can duplicate it, then it didn't happen. Instead, they tell everyone they are not going to disclose that information, or they aren't really sure how they did it, but, hey, here are some fused atoms sitting right there so it must have worked. Now the onus is on you to prove me wrong but in the meantime I'm going to tout my successful cold fusion achievement and wait for my Nobel prize.

See the parallel?
 
Thanks! It does look very promising so far, again, this is without actually hitting balls, getting ready to fix my pockets and also not quite ready to devote table time. I'm not super far into the book, maybe like 100 pages. It's kind of funny because every time I have a question, the book pretty much explains it in the next chapter or two. I think it does a good job building the concepts, but at times it takes a little page flipping if you get curious about something. This isn't a knock, it's a HUGE book with a ton of info that I feel I've barely scratched yet.

I can kind of understand the some of the questioning that comes from people used to 2D diagrams, CTE seems so tied into how your vision works in a 3D world that it's kind of difficult to diagram. The good thing is, the book explains it well, I was doing some of the alignment stuff with stuff like hot sauce bottles, etc. I'm really looking forward to giving it a go on the table when I'm able to do so. I think many books are worthless unless you are doing the shots at the table while you read them. I don't feel that way with this book, the diagrams and pics do a good job if you can think outside the box (or in terms of human vision). I know I can't really have an opinion until I actually get some table time in, but it makes sense. I haven't found any of the "cult magic" that some people like talking about. It's just explained in a way that you have to think a bit about how your eyes work. I'm actually enjoying the book more than the video series as I can flip pages around and think about the stuff at my own pace.
There was a time when I was doing CTE with objects all the time. I did a couple with bottles and cans, sugar packets, palm trees in Sarasota, etc... It's kind of crazy when you start realizing that you can align everyday things visually using CTE principles.

What's also cool is that I can take a 2d diagram, even a simple sketch on a napkin and explain CTE concepts easily because when it's flat and we are looking down it mimics the perspective of looking at a shot on a table. I have even used a little toy table and a lazy susan.
 
There was a time when I was doing CTE with objects all the time. I did a couple with bottles and cans, sugar packets, palm trees in Sarasota, etc... It's kind of crazy when you start realizing that you can align everyday things visually using CTE principles.

What's also cool is that I can take a 2d diagram, even a simple sketch on a napkin and explain CTE concepts easily because when it's flat and we are looking down it mimics the perspective of looking at a shot on a table. I have even used a little toy table and a lazy susan.

I showed an example once using two beer bottles and was roasted by Spidey for it. Be careful what you share! Lol
 
I said I would take the post down and you said it was not necessary. I thought the issue was over. I do have to say it is remarkable that you consider my comments mocking (which they were, while making a point at the same time) but you can bring up PJ's fidgeting on your secret video and act like it is simply relaying information and not mocking.
Look, Pat gets to the shot line by fidgeting until he feels right. That's a straight up fact. His contention has been that ALL aiming systems are pure feel and that no method is any better than any other. In the face of that contention his method is fair game to talk about. It's goofy to look at but he makes it work. However to say that it and CTE are the same is simply not true. There are any number of shot making contests where I am very confident that the CTE user would score much higher than Pat.

Taking a post down isn't the goal here. The goal is that you engage in actual good faith and that's not your intention. Every time you allow yourself to denigrate even when you THINK that you're making a point the actual point you are making is to prolong the animosity.

If you go back to when you and I first exchanged words on this subject you will find that I treated you respectfully and sincerely. I treat everyone here with exactly the tone that they display. Mock me and those I care about maliciously and you will get treated accordingly. Have a normal conversation where we attempt to clarify issues of disagreement then we can take that as far as possible with ZERO animosity.

I am not one of those kumbaya turn the other cheek people. Not when it comes to matters of practically and intellectual concepts. It's funny that when I said I am an atheist you took the opportunity to mock atheists by declaring your pity for them. I only told you that so that you could understand that I am not prone to believing that which I cannot see, touch or otherwise satisfactorily confirm the existence of. No so that you could seize upon it to tell me that you pity me because you think that I am handicapped by some inability to imagine mystical origins of humanity. That you say this to me in while telling me that you are certain that something you cannot see is active within me and responsible for any success that I might have while using CTE instead of my own deliberate and willful action is particularly silly in my opinion.

I freely admit that I am not a mathematician or a geometer. Nor am I trained scientist of any kind. But I am a creator and in my field an engineer and designer. I create cases out of parts that are weak on their own but when combined in the right way become strong enough to more than adequately protect thousands of dollars of equipment against a lot of things that would negatively affect that equipment. In other words Dan, I am not some dumb ass who can't understand what happens on a pool table. And since I own five pool tables and a full library of instructional books and DVDs along with having access to a vast compendium of pool content I am fully capable of taking any concept I come across to the table and making my own observations and comparing notes with others who have also done the same exploration. So, save your pity and your mocking for someone whom you can drive away. With me you will get someone who will take any effing test you dream up and IF your test shows that I am wrong in anything I have said then I will absolutely say that. I have done EVERY test that I have seen that has been proposed and come away with an even stronger trust in CTE aiming.

So maybe yours will be designed in a way that proves your point when taken sincerely and in good faith. If so then so be it. But, given what you have produced thus far, including the silly blocked pockets video you did, I don't have much hope that you are thinking of anything but that which support your foregone conclusions in your mind. As I have told you many times, EVEN IF there is some subjectivity in the method or application of the method the NET RESULT is that the user is using it deliberately and objectively to reach a consistently true shot line. In my mind IF you are able to find subjectivity then it can only serve to make CTE stronger than it already is.

Bring it.
 
I showed an example once using two beer bottles and was roasted by Spidey for it. Be careful what you share! Lol
If Dave wants to criticize me then I am positive that he will give clear reasoning for it. Was your example somehow mocking someone or mocking CTE?
 
Regarding the bold, apparently I'm so eager to hear another possible explanation that I'm stalking you on the issue. See my other comments in another post.

Burden of proof? Think about it this way:

Scientists say they have achieved cold fusion in their lab. The burden of proof is on them to disclose their methods so that the experiment can be duplicated. If nobody can duplicate it, then it didn't happen. Instead, they tell everyone they are not going to disclose that information, or they aren't really sure how they did it, but, hey, here are some fused atoms sitting right there so it must have worked. Now the onus is on you to prove me wrong but in the meantime I'm going to tout my successful cold fusion achievement and wait for my Nobel prize.

See the parallel?
Correct, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So on the TOPIC of Center to Edge aiming when it is adopted by instructors and professional players who verify that the instructions produce consistently accurate shot lines because they can use precise instructions based on objective references that's not enough for you to at least say that there is something to it. Sometimes anecdotal evidence is all that you have but it can be enough to start an exploration. Scientists chasing the why of observed phenomena have often been confronted with a situation where they know something is there and happening as reported but they have not been able to figure out WHY it happens yet.

Neither you nor Pat will even admit that there is a spectrum between fully subjective and fully objective. You want to lecture me on faith while telling me that I can't experience anything existentially and you can't even concede that one method CAN BE much more objective than another. So forgive me if I tell you that I don't give two shits for your opinion. Or don't forgive me, I don't care. When you deliberately choose to nitpick and denigrate and say that someone who says CTE is objective is committing FRAUD upon the pool world then your opinion becomes worthless to me.

I played nice with you, with Pat, with Lou, with Joey Bautista, with JC and several others here. The pattern of my conversations is clear. I start with the idea that you want to figure shit out along with me. When I see that you're really only interested in the knock then I lose any interest in having civil dialog with you. Civility is then forced by the rules of the forum and not through any sense of decorum. You're a defamatory bunch.

The fact, and it is a fact, that you have said that Stan is fraudulent and that asking for $100 for a book where CTE is called an objective aiming system is defrauding the consumer, shows me that you are not interested in exploration of the how and why CTE works but only in the destruction of CTE as a viable system. Not once have you or any others been able to point to any of the instructions and clearly show where the user is guessing. Not you, not Pat, not Jewett, not Aliciatore, none of you. That you don't think that I have pondered that question and taken it to the table and to the diagramming software is another indication of how little actual regard you have for the thoughts I present here. Which makes sense since your premise is that I am a self-deluded brainwashed cult member who can't see past the zealotry and accept your "superior logic".

The proof is on the table. When it comes to pity I do genuinely feel sorry for you that you have not learned CTE enough to experience the moment when it clicks. Center Pocket Music is a real thing that feels amazing when you hear it. I sincerely hope you get to hear it more often regardless of how you aim. I hope that you actually ENJOY pool because honestly it feels like you don't.
 
If Dave wants to criticize me then I am positive that he will give clear reasoning for it. Was your example somehow mocking someone or mocking CTE?

Nope. Was simply describing how the visuals didn't exclusive pertain to spheres or a surrounding 2x1 surface.

I remember writing that a person could stand on the roof of a building, and, looking out over the city, pick a near and distant building (of similar size/width) and use the 15, 30, or 45 visuals and get a unique perception. Meaning there's only one place for the body and eyes to be in order to get a unique "fixed" perspective on the near building. Then I took a picture of two beer bottles and showed that the same visuals can be used on those. I even used a model Cadillac and a model motorcycle (same width) as another example, showing that the visuals aren't strictly confined to the use of spheres or pool balls. Sounds like you've done the same thing with various objects.
 
I came up with something recently and have been trying it out. Tell me where I'm wrong. When you distill it down the claim is that CTE does the aiming for you. In other words, simply follow the instructions, make sure you are seeing the lines as directed, and you don't need to do anything else but shoot straight. You are aligning the cue per CTE instructions and CTE geometry is making sure the ball goes in the pocket. You don't need to have any prior experience regarding "when a shot looks right" and you don't even need to look at the pocket. Even if you never picked up a cue before, if you can follow the instructions the ball will find a pocket. This comes back to your experience. You've been doing it many years and yet it still doesn't seem automatic. That's not meant to be an insult, but an observation.
CTE gives you the aim line. It is up to you to use that information to put the ball in the hole. All nuances of stroke, CIT, cloth, rails, mechanics... all come into play. CTE is not a magic bullet shot maker, although with the aim line given is sure makes them a lot easier.
 
CTE gives you the aim line. It is up to you to use that information to put the ball in the hole. All nuances of stroke, CIT, cloth, rails, mechanics... all come into play. CTE is not a magic bullet shot maker, although with the aim line given is sure makes them a lot easier.
I have wondered for years as to why that IS SO DIFFICULT for the simple minded ones to grasp.
They have apparently been set in their ways for so long that they cannot enjoy the newer realizations that pool is primarily a VISUAL game and not physical. "The eyes lead and the body follows".
(I'm assuming here that you're replying to some of the same old horse puckey that's been dished out by "the posse" for years.)
What a relief to not visit here very much. Those guys are crazy.
How are you enjoying the book? It's a magnificent study isn't it.....
Stay happy.(y)
Pete
 
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Nope. Was simply describing how the visuals didn't exclusive pertain to spheres or a surrounding 2x1 surface.

I remember writing that a person could stand on the roof of a building, and, looking out over the city, pick a near and distant building (of similar size/width) and use the 15, 30, or 45 visuals and get a unique perception. Meaning there's only one place for the body and eyes to be in order to get a unique "fixed" perspective on the near building. Then I took a picture of two beer bottles and showed that the same visuals can be used on those. I even used a model Cadillac and a model motorcycle (same width) as another example, showing that the visuals aren't strictly confined to the use of spheres or pool balls. Sounds like you've done the same thing with various objects.
Yes I have. Successfully to communicate the concept to students.
 
CTE gives you the aim line. It is up to you to use that information to put the ball in the hole. All nuances of stroke, CIT, cloth, rails, mechanics... all come into play. CTE is not a magic bullet shot maker, although with the aim line given is sure makes them a lot easier.
Then someone lied on his video about cte trumping CIT?
 
Contact geometry gives you THE shoot line of THE shot aimed.
C.ounter T.hunk E.stimates give you AN aim line without specifying a shot.
WTF is WRONG with you? Contact geometry isn't even a term that is used or useful for pool playing. You keep pushing this nonsense as if you are actually saying something that is useful or practical.

From Wikipedia on the subject since you skipped over the last time I published the link.

"
contact point p is an (n − 1)-dimensional linear subspace of the tangent space to M at p.[1][2] A contact element can be given by the kernel of a linear function on the tangent space to M at p. However, if a subspace is given by the kernel of a linear function ω, then it will also be given by the zeros of λω where λ ≠ 0 is any nonzero real number. Thus, the kernels of { λω : λ ≠ 0 } all give the same contact element. It follows that the space of all contact elements of M can be identified with a quotient of the cotangent bundle T*M (with the zero section {\displaystyle 0_{M}}
{\displaystyle 0_{M}}
removed),[1] namely:

{\displaystyle {\text{PT}}^{*}M=({\text{T}}^{*}M-{0_{M}})/\!\sim \ {\text{ where, for }}\omega _{i}\in {\text{T}}_{p}^{*}M,\ \ \omega _{1}\sim \omega _{2}\ \iff \ \exists \ \lambda \neq 0\ :\ \omega _{1}=\lambda \omega _{2}.}
{\displaystyle {\text{PT}}^{*}M=({\text{T}}^{*}M-{0_{M}})/\!\sim \ {\text{ where, for }}\omega _{i}\in {\text{T}}_{p}^{*}M,\ \ \omega _{1}\sim \omega _{2}\ \iff \ \exists \ \lambda \neq 0\ :\ \omega _{1}=\lambda \omega _{2}.}

A contact structure on an odd dimensional manifold M, of dimension 2k+1, is a smooth distribution of contact elements, denoted by ξ, which is generic at each point.[1][2] The genericity condition is that ξ is non-integrable.

Assume that we have a smooth distribution of contact elements, ξ, given locally by a differential 1-form α; i.e. a smooth section of the cotangent bundle. The non-integrability condition can be given explicitly as:[1]

{\displaystyle \alpha \wedge ({\text{d}}\alpha )^{k}\neq 0\ {\text{where}}\ ({\text{d}}\alpha )^{k}=\underbrace {{\text{d}}\alpha \wedge \ldots \wedge {\text{d}}\alpha } _{k-{\text{times}}}.}
 \alpha \wedge (\text{d}\alpha)^k \neq 0 \ \text{where} \ (\text{d}\alpha)^k = \underbrace {\text{d}\alpha \wedge \ldots  \wedge \text{d}\alpha}_{k-\text{times}}.

"

Maybe you can diagram that and explain to us how it gives the shooter "THE shoot (shot) line of THE shot aimed." Please explain how the player uses this information or ANY type of formula to establish the shot line. While I personally think you're just trolling I will play along since I think you're completely full of BS.

Now for the second thing you wrote in your pathetic continuing attempts to mock that which you don't know or understand,

"C.ounter T.hunk E.stimates give you AN aim line without specifying a shot."

Um, nope, the shot dictates the sight lines that the shooter uses to get to the shot line. Sight lines are aiming/alignment lines. Aiming encompasses the entire act of getting the body into position to make something go to a target. In the case of pocket billiards where the task is to send a cue ball into an object ball and have that object ball go into a hole the AIMING is done to find where to put the cue down. There is no estimating/sighting/aligning without a specific shot in mind. Center to Edge aiming gives the shooter a set of "keys" to use where one of those keys IS what brings them to the shot line. There is no estimating in CTE. There can be making the wrong choice when presented with two choices and one is the right one. It isn't a matter of saying well it could be A-inside but need a smidgen of adjustment to the right or left. It's, for example, a choice between A-Inside or A-outside, or A inside and B outside, sometimes, like with some locksets two keys can open the same lock and as with any building manager knowing which keys go to which locks is a matter of experience. Over time the manager gets to the point where he instantly recognizes the correct keys and quickly has it in hand ready to unlock the door.

You make this out to be much more complicated than it is by casting aspersions that are not true and which come from a place of ignorance. This nonsense about "contact geometry" is merely a trolling mechanism. You could insert any physics/geometry/math theory and claim it does whatever for aiming in pool and it would be equally ridiculous.

Center to Edge aiming is s set of specific instructions that train the shooter's visual acuity by directing them to use objective reference points and a specific focus technique in order to bring that shooter's eyes and body to the correct center ball shot line, the line which the cueball MUST travel down to make the object ball in the absence of applied spin. That's it. No math needed. No formulas. No rulers. No imaginary balls or estimation. Just an open mind and training to recognize the reference points and practice to know which perception/visual "key" to apply to the shot being faced.
 
Lol, don't you also have FAITH in your aiming system, even if it's HAMB or you just see the shot? ;)😅
JB has faith that CTE somehow finds the pocket for you because the table is 2x1. He cannot prove that and can only show success at pocketing balls as "proof" which of course it is not. HAMB doesn't require faith. It requires enough play time to simply recognize when the shot is lined up correctly.
 
As I have told you many times, EVEN IF there is some subjectivity in the method or application of the method the NET RESULT is that the user is using it deliberately and objectively to reach a consistently true shot line. In my mind IF you are able to find subjectivity then it can only serve to make CTE stronger than it already is.

Bring it.
Here's what I think happens. Can't be sure, but seems most likely to me: CTE provides a structured pre shot routine that some people may be lacking. This will require more attention to each shot which will in itself help with pocketing success. I believe CTE puts the cue ball in the vicinity of the pocket pretty much the same as any other method, or even no method, would do. Sometimes the alignment happens to match up with the CTE visual and it goes in. Other times it is not right on, it is in the vicinity like the way most average players can do with no system. So now comes the argument. I believe, unless better evidence comes along, that through hours of practice using CTE and getting the ball lined up close to the pocket, the HAMB effect takes over and the player simply fudges the alignment a tiny bit to get on the shot line where their experience/subconscious tells them it should be. I have never believed that it is so easy to find two lines at the same time where they both look on. At several feet ball distance I find it nearly impossible to do with any accuracy. I think people learning CTE simply do it consistently and begin, over time, to MAKE the shots so in. This is when you say it just "clicked."

That's what I mean by subjectivity and if you think that is good then we agree. It is not, however, how CTE is explained to work and touted as something special.
 
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