The nisl is defined by your eyes. You put the cue on the nisl. You can look directly at either nisl. The cb edge helps to put focus on the correct one.
A real CTE shot for you to try.
- Thread starter mohrt
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The nisl is defined by your eyes. You put the cue on the nisl. You can look directly at either nisl. The cb edge helps to put focus on the correct one.
OK, I spent some time on this. I suggest we drop the discussion about 2 NISL's, one from each eye. I'm having enough trouble just trying to see one. You say that when I look at the cb edge I can see the NISL. Let's get into that in more detail. These comments and questions are based on what I got out of spending time on the table with it. I avert my eyes to the cb inside edge and now, without moving from that focus, I see a somewhat blurry center of the cb. The NISL must then be the line from my eyes to that center cb, right? So if I put the cue on that line I am putting the cue under my vision and pointing at center cb. I have gotten consistent enough that I can make the center table 1/2 ball hit shot most of the time using the CTE procedure, but the NISL I find goes from my eyes to the new ccb and that's where I put the cue down - from the line of my eyes to the ccb. When I move the balls down table one diamond I do the same thing and I get the same result with the ob hitting the short rail.
Another subject: Nowhere in this procedure do you talk about aiming anything at the object ball after finding the NISL. When I do it, I first confirm that I see the SL and then acquire the NISL and shoot straight through that line with the cue. I am almost afraid to look at the ob because I think it will take my eye off the NISL and then take the cue off the NISL. So why is looking at the ob while getting ready to fire necessary? You mentioned something about dialing in the shot once you get on the NISL but never really explained what you meant by that. Does it have something to do with looking at the ob?
Thanks.
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You don’t need to look at the OB again once you are done with AL and SL. You can look directly at either NISL depending on which eye is doing the focusing. Looking at the CB edge helps to guide you to the proper NISL. Once you get cue on/near you can switch your focus off CB edge to CCB. Dialing in just means perfecting The cue on CCB. Which is the NISL. CCB is your target, not something on the OB.
If you miss short when moving the balls forward you are probably not getting the initial AL SL perception correct.
If you miss short when moving the balls forward you are probably not getting the initial AL SL perception correct.
In your video when you are about to shoot are you looking at the ob last or at the cb/NISL line only? I know cookie said he looks at ob last and pauses before the forward stroke. If you watch Stan's videos he is clearly looking back and forth between the cb and ob before shooting. He seems to do it twice before shooting on the limited number of shots I watched.
Maybe, but then why am I successful at the first shot that is a half ball hit? It seems if I can find the correct AL SL for the first shot then I can do the same thing and get it for the second one just as well.
Looking back at the OB during shot execution is a matter of preference. It should not affect your alignment on the NISL. You can look at CB or OB last. NISL is the same.
I’m not sure why it first works and second doesn’t. Maybe practice both shots 10 times a day for a few days, see if something evident comes up as your eyes and mind learn the perceptions? It took me a couple weeks of practice to get in the swing of things at first.
Is there any possibility in your mind that maybe I'm not doing it wrong and there is something else going on when it works that you have not considered?
Whatever is, it’s consistent and repeatable even with pockets covered or bank shots. I’m not forcing the SL and AL in any way. They are all unique, and they do not equate to 2D laser lines.
I will give it a few more days of practice and report back maybe with a video but I can see that your mind is closed to possibilities other than what you have already convinced yourself of. We'll see. One clear difference between you and me is that I am not trying to pocket the object ball. I am merely trying to follow the CTE steps "objectively." I'm sure that if my goal is to pocket the ball then I will eventually find a way to make it start going in. That would probably also take me a couple of weeks to figure out.
Ironic, as it sounds like you are the one closed to possibilities other than what have convinced yourself of. I try to (and do) follow the CTE instructions to a tee, which result in pocketing balls when my stroke is good. Not the other way around. I really think the problem you are having is not correctly addressing the perception. Practice is usually what resolves this, which is why I suggested it.
The way I look at it is I'm the one spending my time learning the new CTE method because I can see that you are 100% convinced that it works. That intrigues me even though everything I've observed about CTE says it doesn't work the way you think it does. I will continue to spend some time as you suggest and will judgment until that time.
Sounds good. I just want to mention, I have no dog in this fight. I don't make a dime. I'm not coming here to argue or make people mad. I'm genuinely interested in finding out if common ground can be made. I have no personal plight with anyone on this forum, and I try very hard not to make something into a personal issue. You guys make it so tempting sometimes
but I do my best to refrain. I'm just trying to relay details around CTE that I understand that may not be prevalent to the uninitiated. Especially with more refined vernacular exposed in the book and truth series.So with that, I made another video. This is not a shot demo, this is a concept clearing demo. All I do is talk. Don't bother comparing cue alignments frame by frame
I wanted to put some concepts to video, for those that ignore the details laid out in the thread. I don't know if it will just start new arguments, but I'm trying to explain things as plainly as possible from my point of view. I watched it once and noticed some things:- This was impromptu, I pause here and there a little but did get concepts across.
- I said "aim line and shot line" a few times when I mean "aim line and sight line".
- For Pro One I explain how to get on the CCB before we had stepping. But you can use stepping also with Pro One, which I do as well.
- I tend to mix "CCB" and "NISL" and "shot line" throughout the video. They are all conceptually the same thing.
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So, initially, you had the same problem Dan is having?
He can follow the steps and get it to work on some shots, but following the same steps on other shots doesn't send the ball to the pocket. Are you saying you had the same trouble at first, and after a couple weeks it started working?
If so, I believe that's the point Dan is making, that you've trained your mind to see what you want to see (what you need to see) in order to pocket the ball. And if Dan expects to make that second shot using the exact same steps as the first shot, he will have to train his mind to see it differently also. If he just keeps hitting the shot every day, focusing 100% on following the steps like a robot, he will likely keep getting the same results. But if he uses the steps and actually focuses on pocketing the ball each time, he will eventually train his mind to see what it needs to see in order to make it work.
The perceptions are there, it’s a matter of learning what they look like and how to properly align to them. 10 years ago CTE was very perplexing to me. I also had limited information compared to what we have today. But a couple weeks at the table going through the motions made it click. Once you can recognize the perceptions they are applicable to all shot orientations. I don’t know if I can say definitively that I had the same issues Dan is having, but I definitely wasn’t making balls consistently until I got some visual experience with it.
I've read most of the back and forth between you and "The White". My prejudices toward "The White" remain constant, based on his negativity about this whole thing since I've been in this forum...for at least 3 years. I'm not sure he isn't just 'playing you'.
I've become pretty fair with CTE over the last year. I do not understand a word of the stuff you typed about dealing with four lines. It's been hard enough for me to just learn how to find that NISL with "poking my head out" and then getting on that line at ball address.
If I was a beginner at CTE, and I read all that you posted, I'd be so confused that I'd say to hash with this method of aiming and try something else.
I realize you're a certified instructor and Stan doesn't choose any 2-bit bums to transfer his knowledge. Let that be clearly understood, sir. I cannot locate anything about four lines taught in the master book and he didn't teach me anything about four lines in personal training.
Stan trained me with Pro One...I was already half ass okay with Basic CTE.
I still "cycle" back and forth between the two. When the bridge hand is out on the table bed, Basic CTE works best for me. When the cueball is near to or frozen on a rail, Pro One works the best. I don't know WHY this works for me and I don't CARE about "why". As Spider says...."Pool is an outcome based game, the ball either goes in the hole or it doesn't...I could give a s--- less about the why."
I'm not writing this stuff to stir up anything, but I think to myself...…."If this is confusing to even ME....it has got to be even worse for someone who's genuinely trying to learn it."
I started not to type this at all..knowing that the detractors here would seize on it and start saying: "See, see, see, CTE is crazy. Now the proponents are even fighting among themselves"
Don't get angry with me, please. I really don't concern myself with the "Pest Posse" since I keep everyone of them on total "ignore" at all times.
Not a problem. I'm curious what you mean by four lines? I talk about the SL and AL. And I talk about the NISL (which is the shot line, just different terminology). But I'm not sure where you are coming up with four lines. As for the newcomer, this thread is in no way a beginner guide or an alternative for training a new person on CTE. Stan has a truth series that is a far superior tool for that. This thread is about taking the 30 perception and breaking down the process (specifically stepping) in great detail. If I were teaching a new guy I'd start with shorter shots and follow very basic principles let them ask questions along the way.
I'm going under the concept that all 30 degree inside perceptions or visuals are done the same and look the same. That is what I do and that is why I pocket balls at mid table but miss them long when moved one diamond down. When you do the same shots you pivot a greater amount for the down table shot than you do for the mid table one. You are the one not doing the same thing each time and that is what we are trying to get to the bottom of. I'm not criticizing anything just stating the facts so far. When you say "learning what they look like" I believe I already have that because I can make the center table shot pretty consistently (without looking at the ob, btw).
I think we are getting closer. Your definition of "the same" for (the 30) is aligning the SL and AL in a physically identical way for every orientation. My definition of "the same" is aligning to the SL and AL as a perception that results in a physically unique NISL. This perception is affected by the orientation of the CB and OB on the table surface. You say the pocket influences the perception, I say the table surface as a whole influences the perception.
In other words, it's adjusted by feel (experience-honed estimation) - as we've been saying for 20+ years.
That isn't a criticism of the method - just a clarification of its "explanation" (been saying that for 20+ years too).
pj
chgo
There is an issue with that statement. The AL and SL are very clearly defined when the perceptions are executed properly. No guessing, no estimating, no feel. The AL and SL are always acquired with the same visual process, consistently and repeatedly for a given CB/OB orientation. There is none of "well for this shot because the shot line is thinner, I need to adjust the AL/SL to a thinner perception." That is not the case. The perception is in one place only for each orientation.