A real CTE shot for you to try.

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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My only possible contention with your position on CTE is exactly what you or I mean when we say "it works" for someone. In my definition, CTE does not work but someone can still improve using CTE because it may be solving other issues that are impairing the player's ability to succeed. Those problems might also be solved in any other number of ways having nothing to do with CTE. Or, another way to look at it is my left pocket jelly bean aiming system. If a guy uses that system and works hard at it for a few months he will play better -- money back guarantee. Now, of course the jelly bean system doesn't work, but people can still improve doing it. The common thread is that it is the player making it work, not some magic perception or magic jelly bean thing... unless mohrt finds it, of course.

Now that I think about it I'm not sure what your position is. I sense that you say CTE "works" simply to avoid a debate about it. Nod your head once if that is correct, please. ;)

I believe it works for those with enough experience to make it work. In other words, an experienced player can use the perceptions and find the shot line visually. An inexperienced player will struggle with it until they can begin to recognize the shot lines.

I had an interesting aiming conversation with a great player last weekend. He uses 3 ob references for every shot...center ob, halfway between center and edge, and the edge. He has perfected this method, which is a fractional method. He uses his ferrule/shaft as a gauge, splitting it into quarters or eighths to aim thinner or thicker than the nearest reference as needed. The guy rarely rarely misses a shot. He told me he no longer feels like he's guessing where to aim. He has known references and known adjustments.

Like this guy and his fractional method, I believe CTE can work the same way for someone willing to put in the trial and error time. You stick to the same basic references/visuals until you become consistent at recognizing how much to thin or thicken a certain reference. That's not how Stan or any proficient CTE users say it works, but for anyone without a ton of playing experience already, it's pretty obvious that there's a learning curve involved. That learning curve is the process of recognizing the correct shot line so that you can sweep into it.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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... I had an interesting aiming conversation with a great player last weekend. He uses 3 ob references for every shot...center ob, halfway between center and edge, and the edge. He has perfected this method, which is a fractional method. He uses his ferrule/shaft as a gauge, splitting it into quarters or eighths to aim thinner or thicker than the nearest reference as needed. The guy rarely rarely misses a shot. He told me he no longer feels like he's guessing where to aim. He has known references and known adjustments. ...
It would be a horrible trick to play on him to show him how much accuracy is required on long shots and that division into eighths or even sixteenths is not nearly enough. Or it would be horrible if he could understand the geometry and believed you. The loss of confidence might destroy his long game.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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It would be a horrible trick to play on him to show him how much accuracy is required on long shots and that division into eighths or even sixteenths is not nearly enough. Or it would be horrible if he could understand the geometry and believed you. The loss of confidence might destroy his long game.

You are misunderstanding. He uses the basic fractional references, then fine tunes by aiming fractional portions of his ferrule in relation to those known references, exactly like I suggest in Poolology. The only difference is that he learned to do it using trial and error instead of a mathematical system, so it took him longer.

Anyway, adjusting 1/8 of a tip/ferrule thicker or thinner than any known reference is about a 1.5mm adjustment with a 12mm tip. I could easily explain the geometry of pocket opening margin of error and it would make no difference, because it works. This guy uses basic quarter references, then fine tunes from there. In Poolology I suggest using 1/8 references and fine tuning from those with your ferrule.

What happens after you shoot enough shots with any system or method is that you develop a good eye for making it work very accurately. Distance doesn't matter when you know how to make it work.

I think it's funny that ghostball and contact point aimers believe they can pinpoint a perfect aim line or contact point to within a millimeter or two, but for some reason they can't imagine that a fractional aimer can do the same. 🤔
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I read/recall/did not manufacture that the eye/brain can detect/resolve deviations of 1/10,000 of a degree. (sounds wrong frankly) Anyway this IMO shifts the priorities of long shot aiming away from fractions and contacts to the carom tangents.
 

Bob Jewett

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You are misunderstanding. He uses the basic fractional references, then fine tunes by aiming fractional portions of his ferrule...
You're right, I did misunderstand. I wonder how many lines he is conscious of. But what happens when his ferrule has to be off to the side for side spin?
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I think it's funny that ghostball and contact point aimers believe they can pinpoint a perfect aim line or contact point to within a millimeter or two, but for some reason they can't imagine that a fractional aimer can do the same. 🤔
You're painting with a wide brush my friend.... ;)
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I read/recall/did not manufacture that the eye/brain can detect/resolve deviations of 1/10,000 of a degree. (sounds wrong frankly) Anyway this IMO shifts the priorities of long shot aiming away from fractions and contacts to the carom tangents.
Interesting... When long shot potting I don't consider carom tangents when aiming.
 

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are misunderstanding. He uses the basic fractional references, then fine tunes by aiming fractional portions of his ferrule in relation to those known references, exactly like I suggest in Poolology. The only difference is that he learned to do it using trial and error instead of a mathematical system, so it took him longer.

Anyway, adjusting 1/8 of a tip/ferrule thicker or thinner than any known reference is about a 1.5mm adjustment with a 12mm tip. I could easily explain the geometry of pocket opening margin of error and it would make no difference, because it works. This guy uses basic quarter references, then fine tunes from there. In Poolology I suggest using 1/8 references and fine tuning from those with your ferrule.

What happens after you shoot enough shots with any system or method is that you develop a good eye for making it work very accurately. Distance doesn't matter when you know how to make it work.

I think it's funny that ghostball and contact point aimers believe they can pinpoint a perfect aim line or contact point to within a millimeter or two, but for some reason they can't imagine that a fractional aimer can do the same. 🤔
One system I came up with and experimented with was picturing a clock on the tip. So the top/center of the tip was 12 and the far right was 3 and the far left was 9 o'clock.

You then put the number of the clock on the right reference point on the CB to get fractional aim points between standard/known points.

Another variation of this is putting the center/12 o'clock point on the contact point and then noting where the center of the OB is put that point on the contact point.

For example, if I put noon on the contact point and then the center of the CB is at 1:45 (3/4 between 1 and 2) then if I put 1:45 on the contact point I have effectively doubled the distance.

There are many problems with this system that don't have to do with the accuracy of the system. One is keeping the cue stick parallel with the shot line. The tendency is to pivot.

I got the idea from an AZB poster a long time ago who said that he put tick marks on his tip to aim with. I can't remember who the poster was and have been unsuccessful searching although I haven't tried since the changeover to the new system.
 

BC21

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You're right, I did misunderstand. I wonder how many lines he is conscious of. But what happens when his ferrule has to be off to the side for side spin?

Lol. That's like asking how many routes do you know throughout your home state or city. The number is irrelevant, meaningless. All that matters is knowing the best route from point A to point B, which is typically one of only 2 or 3 options.

As far as applying english.... lol. Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fractional aimer does the same thing a ghostball user or contact point user does - compensate for spin based on the known aim line.

In fact, fractionally, it's quite easy to make adjustments off a known aim line. Put an ob in the center of the table and place the cb a couple of diamonds away and lined up to shoot the ob to the middle diamond on the end rail. This is a halfball aim to either corner pocket. If cutting the ball to the left, and applying inside left spin, you might aim through the left side of the cb to one quarter thicker than a halfball aim. Or you might have to aim through the left side of the cb to dead center ob. Speed and your specific cue shaft deflection will determine how much you need to compensate.

I know you are well aware of this. And it's simple enough to figure out with a few practice shots. Once a player learns exactly how much to compensate (fractionally) from the original reference aim line when applying spin, there is very little guesswork. You simply know X amount of spin needs an aiming adjustment of 1/8 or 1/4 or 1/2, or whatever, from the referenced aim line, based on speed and distance of course. And when you do this enough times you simply recognize it without having to consciously study on it.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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You're painting with a wide brush my friend.... ;)

Only to push a common sense point. Too often I read comments insinuating that fractional aiming is limited because there are so many possible lines of aim. It's just noise.

It's nonsense to me that a player who can keep a 1mm contact point in focus, and then estimate to the nearest millimeter the distance from that point to center ob (while standing behind the cb), only to then accurately double that distance to find a point of aim, thinks a fractional user can't make simple millimeter adjustments to an already known line of aim.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Only to push a common sense point. Too often I read comments insinuating that fractional aiming is limited because there are so many possible lines of aim. It's just noise.
Fair enough....

Just bear in mind that not all players who use varying 'systems' are so closed minded.
 

BC21

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Fair enough....

Just bear in mind that not all players who use varying 'systems' are so closed minded.

Oh I know. The close-minded are typically those who teach one certain method - the method from which they learned. Or they have their own books and DVDs and simply must put down any opposing methods that could possibly be more beneficial or quicker when it comes to developing aiming skills.

I try to be fair and honest. Ghostball works. Contact points and double the distance works. Traditional fractional aiming works. All of these methods require a lot of trial and error. But they can all potentially help a player develop good ball pocketing skills, eventually, with enough experience.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe it works for those with enough experience to make it work. In other words, an experienced player can use the perceptions and find the shot line visually. An inexperienced player will struggle with it until they can begin to recognize the shot lines.
I had an interesting aiming conversation with a great player last weekend. He uses 3 ob references for every shot...center ob, halfway between center and edge, and the edge. He has perfected this method, which is a fractional method. He uses his ferrule/shaft as a gauge, splitting it into quarters or eighths to aim thinner or thicker than the nearest reference as needed. The guy rarely rarely misses a shot. He told me he no longer feels like he's guessing where to aim. He has known references and known adjustments.
Like this guy and his fractional method, I believe CTE can work the same way for someone willing to put in the trial and error time. You stick to the same basic references/visuals until you become consistent at recognizing how much to thin or thicken a certain reference. That's not how Stan or any proficient CTE users say it works, but for anyone without a ton of playing experience already, it's pretty obvious that there's a learning curve involved. That learning curve is the process of recognizing the correct shot line so that you can sweep into it.
Brian, this is an excellent post you made. It also reminds me of a post you made a few years back about a friend of yours who was well skilled at Shishkabob because what you're describing above is Shishkabob and what Hal Houle taught as one of many of his aiming systems. For many students he used Shishkabob as the opening system like "bicycle training wheels" to get the eyes trained for the 'center OB', 'halfway between center and edge', and the 'edge' to eventually transition into CTE. (15-30-45-edge OR A-B-C-edge)

However, Shishkabob is strong enough on its own to be used as a primary system like the person you're describing who has learned all of the nuances on how to use different parts of the ferrule for the final move.

There are also a few different offsets of the tip/ferrule while setting up. It can be starting with a full tip to the inside of center on the CB and then pivoting back to center; partial segments of the tip to the inside pivoting back to center; tip to center of CB pivoting incrementally to the outside of the CB while aiming at center OB, 1/4 of OB, or edge of OB.



Like this guy and his fractional method, I believe CTE can work the same way for someone willing to put in the trial and error time. You stick to the same basic references/visuals until you become consistent at recognizing how much to thin or thicken a certain reference. That's not how Stan or any proficient CTE users say it works, but for anyone without a ton of playing experience already, it's pretty obvious that there's a learning curve involved. That learning curve is the process of recognizing the correct shot line so that you can sweep into it.

Without getting into minutia, I'd say the above paragraph is pretty much the way it is except for the main factor you didn't mention which is how to use the eyes and head position to be able to get a parallax view of a center and edge alignment on each shot. There certainly IS a LEARNING CURVE involved!

Desire to learn and improve is the main ingredient for it to happen with anything. Most look for the easy way or what got them to where they are and that's the way it's going to be.

Good post.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Brian, this is an excellent post you made. It also reminds me of a post you made a few years back about a friend of yours who was well skilled at Shishkabob because what you're describing above is Shishkabob and what Hal Houle taught as one of many of his aiming systems. For many students he used Shishkabob as the opening system like "bicycle training wheels" to get the eyes trained for the 'center OB', 'halfway between center and edge', and the 'edge' to eventually transition into CTE. (15-30-45-edge OR A-B-C-edge)

However, Shishkabob is strong enough on its own to be used as a primary system like the person you're describing who has learned all of the nuances on how to use different parts of the ferrule for the final move.

There are also a few different offsets of the tip/ferrule while setting up. It can be starting with a full tip to the inside of center on the CB and then pivoting back to center; partial segments of the tip to the inside pivoting back to center; tip to center of CB pivoting incrementally to the outside of the CB while aiming at center OB, 1/4 of OB, or edge of OB.



Like this guy and his fractional method, I believe CTE can work the same way for someone willing to put in the trial and error time. You stick to the same basic references/visuals until you become consistent at recognizing how much to thin or thicken a certain reference. That's not how Stan or any proficient CTE users say it works, but for anyone without a ton of playing experience already, it's pretty obvious that there's a learning curve involved. That learning curve is the process of recognizing the correct shot line so that you can sweep into it.

Without getting into minutia, I'd say the above paragraph is pretty much the way it is except for the main factor you didn't mention which is how to use the eyes and head position to be able to get a parallax view of a center and edge alignment on each shot. There certainly IS a LEARNING CURVE involved!

Desire to learn and improve is the main ingredient for it to happen with anything. Most look for the easy way or what got them to where they are and that's the way it's going to be.

Good post.
Joe doesn't realize you just said CTE doesn't really work. The experienced player already knows the shot line and back engineers what that looks like in terms of CTE perceptions or near CTE perceptions to pocket the ball. Since the inexperienced player does not have the store of knowledge in terms of knowing shot lines he will have to work with CTE until he does know the shot lines... because CTE cannot give that to him.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe doesn't realize you just said CTE doesn't really work. The experienced player already knows the shot line and back engineers what that looks like in terms of CTE perceptions or near CTE perceptions to pocket the ball. Since the inexperienced player does not have the store of knowledge in terms of knowing shot lines he will have to work with CTE until he does know the shot lines... because CTE cannot give that to him.
Joe took lessons from Hal ? Or is that Stan ?
And, I agree.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Brian, this is an excellent post you made. It also reminds me of a post you made a few years back about a friend of yours who was well skilled at Shishkabob because what you're describing above is Shishkabob and what Hal Houle taught as one of many of his aiming systems. For many students he used Shishkabob as the opening system like "bicycle training wheels" to get the eyes trained for the 'center OB', 'halfway between center and edge', and the 'edge' to eventually transition into CTE. (15-30-45-edge OR A-B-C-edge)

However, Shishkabob is strong enough on its own to be used as a primary system like the person you're describing who has learned all of the nuances on how to use different parts of the ferrule for the final move.

There are also a few different offsets of the tip/ferrule while setting up. It can be starting with a full tip to the inside of center on the CB and then pivoting back to center; partial segments of the tip to the inside pivoting back to center; tip to center of CB pivoting incrementally to the outside of the CB while aiming at center OB, 1/4 of OB, or edge of OB.



Like this guy and his fractional method, I believe CTE can work the same way for someone willing to put in the trial and error time. You stick to the same basic references/visuals until you become consistent at recognizing how much to thin or thicken a certain reference. That's not how Stan or any proficient CTE users say it works, but for anyone without a ton of playing experience already, it's pretty obvious that there's a learning curve involved. That learning curve is the process of recognizing the correct shot line so that you can sweep into it.

Without getting into minutia, I'd say the above paragraph is pretty much the way it is except for the main factor you didn't mention which is how to use the eyes and head position to be able to get a parallax view of a center and edge alignment on each shot. There certainly IS a LEARNING CURVE involved!

Desire to learn and improve is the main ingredient for it to happen with anything. Most look for the easy way or what got them to where they are and that's the way it's going to be.

Good post.

Thanks. But the guy from last weekend is not using shishkabob. That system requires a pivot. This guy is using straightup fractional aiming and fine tuning the aim lines by using his ferrule....no pivots.
 
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