A real CTE shot for you to try.

[mohrt]

Here is a follow up to my last video. Sorry that it is a bit rambling at the end, but I think it gets across what I wanted for now. The purpose of the video is to look in more detail at what Monty is actually doing. Is he doing the same thing each time or not, for instance? Short answer for those who don't want to watch the video is that Monty is doing the same thing at ball address each time, but is not doing the same thing when it comes to pivoting into shot position, the NISL. Surely Monty can sense that he is pivoting more as the shot becomes more acute? When I say "pivot" I mean going from the consistent, repeatable ball address cue position to the NISL position. It doesn't matter whether he is using a manual pivot or the new face turning method to find the NISL (although, curiously, Monty is using both the 1/2 tip pivot AND the face turning at the same time). The point is that different pivots are required for different shots. Why that happens is the big question, but that is beyond the scope of this video.

I don’t think my reply to your last video was read very carefully. Maybe I’ll do a follow up video. I don’t feel like retyping everything said.

I will say that the focus of my video was to break down every step of the process as I went along. This is not a normal cadence. I did not focus on doing a strict 1/2 tip pivot placement, as manual pivots were not the subject of the video. Therefore the exact placement of pre nisl cue position can be completely ignored, it is not important, nor was it consistent. The eyes find the nisl, the cue just moves there. I can also execute these shots quite well with the pocket covered, half the table covered, and also banks work quite well. I don’t buy the “pocket is there” assumption that I am adjusting things.

 

[Dan White]

I don’t think my reply to your last video was read very carefully. Maybe I’ll do a follow up video. I don’t feel like retyping everything said.

I read it carefully. You said you 1/2 tip pivoted because it was in instructional video and you are used to 1/2 tip pivots as your normal routine but for this video you chose not to be very careful about where you placed the cue. Furthermore it is all irrelevant, you say, because all that matters is the NISL. Nothing about the cue prior to that matters. I think that is pretty close.

I will say that the focus of my video was to break down every step of the process as I went along.

This is not a normal cadence. I did not focus on doing a strict 1/2 tip pivot placement, as manual pivots were not the subject of the video. Therefore the exact placement of pre nisl cue position can be completely ignored, it is not important, nor was it consistent.

... and I think you were more careful about cue placement than you realize. Except for the first shot that was aligned a little off, the next three shots were practically carbon copies. That means the beginning part of your process is consistent and repeatable.

The eyes find the nisl, the cue just moves there. I can also execute these shots quite well with the pocket covered, half the table covered, and also banks work quite well. I don’t buy the “pocket is there” assumption that I am adjusting things.

I know this is probably not going to happen, but the same video done overhead from a fixed camera showing the cue stick and the object ball for all 4 shots would be interesting.

I hope you don't think I am attacking you. I am trying to learn what is going on to the extent possible. I respectfully have the opinion that magic perception isn't the reason you are pocketing balls.

 

[mohrt]

This is what happens: I stand behind the AL such that I can see the SL. This puts my eyes at an offset. I follow the SL into full stance. I can check everything over here if I choose to. I step the CB to see the NISL. I move my cue stick onto the NISL. I stroke the cue on that CCB.

What I’m not doing: paying attention to the pocket when I’m on the NISL (or any step besides when choosing a perception). CCB is my target at that point.

It all starts at the AL and SL. Each CB OB orientation is unique, even though the process is the same for a given perception.

 

[cookie man]

This is what happens: I stand behind the AL such that I can see the SL. This puts my eyes at an offset. I follow the SL into full stance. I can check everything over here if I choose to. I step the CB to see the NISL. I move my cue stick onto the NISL. I stroke the cue on that CCB.

What I’m not doing: paying attention to the pocket when I’m on the NISL (or any step besides when choosing a perception). CCB is my target at that point.

It all starts at the AL and SL. Each CB OB orientation is unique, even though the process is the same for a given perception.

You will soon realize that Dan is not in this to actually learn CTE. All he wants to do is spin every little thing to fit his agenda. He will be forever saying "I think this is what's happening" and then twisting and turning every little thing without ever actually learning what's happening, because learning the truth will not fit his agenda.

 

[Low500]

You will soon realize that Dan is not in this to actually learn CTE. All he wants to do is spin every little thing to fit his agenda. He will be forever saying "I think this is what's happening" and then twisting and turning every little thing without ever actually learning what's happening, because learning the truth will not fit his agenda.

CookieMan...the key word in your post is the word "soon". Most of us realized years ago that this man White is doing exactly what you're saying he is doing. He should be nicknamed the George Stephanopoulos of the pool shooting forum.
NO POOL PLAYER ALIVE OR DEAD EVER HAD AN ABSOLUTE PERFECT STROKE......NONE OF THEM.
Mosconi didn't
Greenleaf didn't
Earl Strickland didn't
Shane Van B. doesn't....neither does Effren, neither does Robocop, The Lion, or any of those red hot British snooker players.
They're all HUMAN BEINGS and subject to minor errors.
No golfer has a perfect swing...no baseball player has a perfect swing
These experiments with lasers, measurings, videos can be applied to any player on the tour out there today and there will still be minor imperfections revealed. They are HUMAN BEINGS and not robots.
All this "scientific" baloney is just another attempt at pathetic deflection away from the real issue.
Scientist White does not, never has, and never will learn or utilize the CTE methods because he's too set in his ways and lives in the past. (He will, however, praise Poolology system to the high heavens because he BELIEVES in it).

 

[Dan White]

This is what happens: I stand behind the AL such that I can see the SL. This puts my eyes at an offset. I follow the SL into full stance. I can check everything over here if I choose to. I step the CB to see the NISL. I move my cue stick onto the NISL. I stroke the cue on that CCB.

What I’m not doing: paying attention to the pocket when I’m on the NISL (or any step besides when choosing a perception). CCB is my target at that point.

It all starts at the AL and SL. Each CB OB orientation is unique, even though the process is the same for a given perception.

Maybe you said this before but when you get the NISL you are looking at the right edge of the cb and with your peripheral vision you are seeing a center cue ball and extending that line through the center core of the cb and out to the ob, right? At this point your head is angled toward the target pocket and your eyes are focused on the right cb edge. When you have the NISL in your peripheral vision do you then shift your eyes and head directly over that line as you put the cue over that line, or do you maintain an offset? If so, then it seems you are moving the cue askew from where your vision is. I'm not successful in seeing anything different when looking at the right cb edge but want to be sure I do what you are doing.

 

[cookie man]

Maybe you said this before but when you get the NISL you are looking at the right edge of the cb and with your peripheral vision you are seeing a center cue ball and extending that line through the center core of the cb and out to the ob, right? At this point your head is angled toward the target pocket and your eyes are focused on the right cb edge. When you have the NISL in your peripheral vision do you then shift your eyes and head directly over that line as you put the cue over that line, or do you maintain an offset? If so, then it seems you are moving the cue askew from where your vision is. I'm not successful in seeing anything different when looking at the right cb edge but want to be sure I do what you are doing.

Question Dan. At what point will you do a video of yourself attempting CTE shots?

I know you don't usually answer questions directed to you but thought i'd give it a try.

 

[mohrt]

Maybe you said this before but when you get the NISL you are looking at the right edge of the cb and with your peripheral vision you are seeing a center cue ball and extending that line through the center core of the cb and out to the ob, right? At this point your head is angled toward the target pocket and your eyes are focused on the right cb edge. When you have the NISL in your peripheral vision do you then shift your eyes and head directly over that line as you put the cue over that line, or do you maintain an offset? If so, then it seems you are moving the cue askew from where your vision is. I'm not successful in seeing anything different when looking at the right cb edge but want to be sure I do what you are doing.

I think I can clear this up. Firstly, my eyes stay at the offset. As I've already stated, at any point I can look back at the AL and SL if I choose to. Second, "CCB" and "NISL" are synonyms. We didn't have "NISL" terminology until the book. It was always stated as "CCB is the target", which is for all intents and purposes, the NISL.

Now from this offset, there are two cueball centers, determined by which eye is dominant for looking at CCB. They are extremely close to each other, within millimeters, and each on either side of the SL. Two NISLs, two shot lines, two tracks to two separate pockets. We can focus on either CCB/NISL. To the untrained eye this isn't a simple feat to focus on the either center at will. So we have two ways to lead us to the intended CCB.

The original method is using a strict 1/2 tip pivot. If you place the cue stick 1/2 tip parallel to the RIGHT of the SL, and pivot your cue to CCB, you will be pivoting to the CCB for right pivots. If you place the cue stick 1/2 tip parallel to the LEFT of the SL, and pivot your cue to CCB, you will be pivoting to the CCB for left pivots. An important detail here is that you are pivoting to a CCB that you can already see. It is not true that the CCB/NISL is determined by the strict pivoting motion of the cue stick. That said, I think that is exactly how it was always taught, and TBH if you are careful about the 1/2 tip offset, I'd say the strict pivot is going to be extremely near, if not dead on every time. But it is not out of the realm of possibility that you might make a very slight adjustment to the bridge hand to put the cue on the CCB/NISL. "eyes lead, body follows". All the same result.

Now the new method, I which I believe to be superior to manual pivots, is stepping the CB. That is, focus on the right edge of the CB to see the right CCB, and focus on the left edge of the CB to see left CCB. This is just a way to force your eye focus onto the correct center. Once you have the correct focus, you can move your cue into place and then switch your eye focus to CCB/NISL and dial in the cue stick. In this case, the exact pre-pivot position of the cue stick is not as crucial. This is evident in my videos, I've used stepping for so long I don't really pay close attention to moving into an exact 1/2 tip offset, although as a force of habit I'm probably very close.

So I'll restate an important detail again. All of the steps of CTE can be done with only the eyes (no cue stick) from both ball address and full stance (I noticed Dan saying ball address in his video when I was in full stance, so be careful about that too.) So for instance. At ball address (or "out of the box") I can put my eyes at the offset to see the AL and SL, then step the CB to see the NISL. No cue stick involved. Now, I can move into full stance (or "in the box") following the SL. My eyes are still at the offset where I can see the AL and SL, and again I can step the CB to see the NISL. No cue stick involved. It is at this point I move my cue stick onto the NISL. This can be done by a 1/2 tip pivot, or if you prefer, once you get used to CTE, you can just move your cue right onto the NISL in one movement as you come into full stance. That is typically what I do when not in demonstration mode.

The unique perception for every CB/OB orientation starts at full stance. My physical alignment to AL/SL is unique for every orientation. If you are looking to unravel the "magic" around CTE perceptions, that is where you need to be looking.

 

[Dan White]

Question Dan. At what point will you do a video of yourself attempting CTE shots?

I'd be happy to do that when there is a definable reason to do so. If it helps us unravel the magic then I'm all for it. As it is all you would see is me making some shots and missing others. As I showed in my first video I end up with the same NISL for ALL 30 degree perceptions. As my time for this stufff is limited I'd like to do only those things that could move the ball down the field.

I know you don't usually answer questions directed to you but thought i'd give it a try.

I tend not to reply to your posts as you usually say the same thing over and over, if that's what you mean. What questions haven't I answered?

 

[cookie man]

I'd be happy to do that when there is a definable reason to do so. If it helps us unravel the magic then I'm all for it. As it is all you would see is me making some shots and missing others. As I showed in my first video I end up with the same NISL for ALL 30 degree perceptions. As my time for this stufff is limited I'd like to do only those things that could move the ball down the field.

I tend not to reply to your posts as you usually say the same thing over and over, if that's what you mean. What questions haven't I answered?

Then do a video on only CTE shots and how you would do them. Stop including all the other bullshit and get down to the nuts and bolts of CTE. Then maybe Morht could help you along.

Of course if you have other motives in this discussion with Morht.................

 

[Dan White]

Then do a video on only CTE shots and how you would do them. Stop including all the other bullshit and get down to the nuts and bolts of CTE. Then maybe Morht could help you along.

Of course if you have other motives in this discussion with Morht.................

My motive is to try and see if we can conclusively determine whether mohrt (I would have thought by now you'd know how to spell his name) is really making use of a magical connection to the table or if something more mundane is happening. If that is threatening to you then I guess science might look like bullshit. Mohrt seems interested in the answer himself as he has been coming up with ideas, too, with the floating finger type thing he had.

I may make a video of CTE shots if it advances the above.

 

[cookie man]

My motive is to try and see if we can conclusively determine whether mohrt (I would have thought by now you'd know how to spell his name) is really making use of a magical connection to the table or if something more mundane is happening. If that is threatening to you then I guess science might look like bullshit. Mohrt seems interested in the answer himself as he has been coming up with ideas, too, with the floating finger type thing he had.

I may make a video of CTE shots if it advances the above.

So you have zero interest in actually learning how to shoot a CTE shot. Nothing is threatening to me about CTE, i know how great it is. It seems to me Mohrt, did i spell it right this time nitpicker, interest is in helping others how to shoot shots using CTE. A REAL CTE SHOT FOR YOU TO TRY is the title of the thread, and he has given you specifically, very detailed instructions on how to do that. I'm guessing he thought you would actually try some shots. But he doesn't know the real Dan does he.

 

[Dan White]

So you have zero interest in actually learning how to shoot a CTE shot.

I know exactly how to do it before Stan changed everything. Hal showed me what to do and Stan introduced a second line. When I do it some shots go in and others, which do not match up with the fractional overlap created using CTE, do not. Not a lot of mystery there. The mystery is how you can use it and make all the shots go.

Nothing is threatening to me about CTE, i know how great it is. It seems to me Mohrt, did i spell it right this time nitpicker, interest is in helping others how to shoot shots using CTE. A REAL CTE SHOT FOR YOU TO TRY is the title of the thread, and he has given you specifically, very detailed instructions on how to do that. I'm guessing he thought you would actually try some shots. But he doesn't know the real Dan does he.

First off, there is nothing nitpicky about spelling a person's name right. It is insulting when you don't and even more so when you say it doesn't matter if you misspell someone else's name.

Second, you obviously haven't been following this thread. I found it confusing and difficult to follow. See the SL with one eye and the AL with the other? I have been trying to shoot with the new method. Spent an hour with it the other day but now Stan says it will take 100 hours or some crazy amount of time to get it right. OK.

 

[cookie man]

I know exactly how to do it before Stan changed everything. Hal showed me what to do and Stan introduced a second line. When I do it some shots go in and others, which do not match up with the fractional overlap created using CTE, do not. Not a lot of mystery there. The mystery is how you can use it and make all the shots go.


First off, there is nothing nitpicky about spelling a person's name right. It is insulting when you don't and even more so when you say it doesn't matter if you misspell someone else's name.

Second, you obviously haven't been following this thread. I found it confusing and difficult to follow. See the SL with one eye and the AL with the other? I have been trying to shoot with the new method. Spent an hour with it the other day but now Stan says it will take 100 hours or some crazy amount of time to get it right. OK.

First you know exactly how to do CTE then in the next sentence you have no clue. Doesn't really matter to me any more. On one hand we have you, PJ, and maybe 10 others that can't understand CTE and think you have to fudge things to make it work. On the other hand you have a couple thousand players following instructions and getting the proper results. I have no doubt that you could also follow the instructions and get the proper results. But where would that leave you after several years and hundreds of posts against CTE, so it ain't going to happen, at least to the point that you would admit to being wrong. So i'll just leave you to Mohrt and see how much patience he has to deal with your bullshit.

I've never met Mohrt but he is about the only one posting on here that doesn't get into the petty bullshit, and yes i contribute to the petty bullshit. He knows his stuff and you all are lucky that he has given out the information that he has

 

[Dan White]

First you know exactly how to do CTE then in the next sentence you have no clue. Doesn't really matter to me any more. On one hand we have you, PJ, and maybe 10 others that can't understand CTE and think you have to fudge things to make it work. On the other hand you have a couple thousand players following instructions and getting the proper results. I have no doubt that you could also follow the instructions and get the proper results. But where would that leave you after several years and hundreds of posts against CTE, so it ain't going to happen, at least to the point that you would admit to being wrong. So i'll just leave you to Mohrt and see how much patience he has to deal with your bullshit.

I've never met Mohrt but he is about the only one posting on here that doesn't get into the petty bullshit, and yes i contribute to the petty bullshit. He knows his stuff and you all are lucky that he has given out the information that he has

I said I know how to do Stan's traditional CTE with manual pivot. I was having trouble understanding the new instructions, which mohrt has helped out with.

 

[Dan White]

I think I can clear this up. Firstly, my eyes stay at the offset. As I've already stated, at any point I can look back at the AL and SL if I choose to. Second, "CCB" and "NISL" are synonyms. We didn't have "NISL" terminology until the book. It was always stated as "CCB is the target", which is for all intents and purposes, the NISL.

Now from this offset, there are two cueball centers, determined by which eye is dominant for looking at CCB. They are extremely close to each other, within millimeters, and each on either side of the SL. Two NISLs, two shot lines, two tracks to two separate pockets. We can focus on either CCB/NISL. To the untrained eye this isn't a simple feat to focus on the either center at will. So we have two ways to lead us to the intended CCB.

The original method is using a strict 1/2 tip pivot. If you place the cue stick 1/2 tip parallel to the RIGHT of the SL, and pivot your cue to CCB, you will be pivoting to the CCB for right pivots. If you place the cue stick 1/2 tip parallel to the LEFT of the SL, and pivot your cue to CCB, you will be pivoting to the CCB for left pivots. An important detail here is that you are pivoting to a CCB that you can already see. It is not true that the CCB/NISL is determined by the strict pivoting motion of the cue stick. That said, I think that is exactly how it was always taught, and TBH if you are careful about the 1/2 tip offset, I'd say the strict pivot is going to be extremely near, if not dead on every time. But it is not out of the realm of possibility that you might make a very slight adjustment to the bridge hand to put the cue on the CCB/NISL. "eyes lead, body follows". All the same result.

Now the new method, I which I believe to be superior to manual pivots, is stepping the CB. That is, focus on the right edge of the CB to see the right CCB, and focus on the left edge of the CB to see left CCB. This is just a way to force your eye focus onto the correct center.

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I really am trying. You said above that each eye gives you a NISL, mm apart from each other. This seems to say that the NISL is already there before averting your vision but averting vision to the right edge makes one NISL stand out from the other. Is that right?

I'm still struggling with finding the NISL. I rewatched Stan's video 7 on stepping. You said that the NISL is found by imagining a line from the stepped cb to the core of the cue ball. It appears from video 7 that looking at the object ball is part of finding the NISL. If I look at the cb right edge all I can see is the white, featureless face of the cue ball in my peripheral vision. How is it possible to point the cue tip at that center if I can't look back at it? If I take my eyes off the edge then whatever center I saw will be lost.

Once you have the correct focus, you can move your cue into place and then switch your eye focus to CCB/NISL and dial in the cue stick. In this case, the exact pre-pivot position of the cue stick is not as crucial. This is evident in my videos, I've used stepping for so long I don't really pay close attention to moving into an exact 1/2 tip offset, although as a force of habit I'm probably very close.

So I'll restate an important detail again. All of the steps of CTE can be done with only the eyes (no cue stick) from both ball address and full stance (I noticed Dan saying ball address in his video when I was in full stance, so be careful about that too.)

I confused full stance with ball address. I though you were calling full stance the post NISL position. At least in the video I explained what I was calling it.

So for instance. At ball address (or "out of the box") I can put my eyes at the offset to see the AL and SL, then step the CB to see the NISL. No cue stick involved. Now, I can move into full stance (or "in the box") following the SL. My eyes are still at the offset where I can see the AL and SL, and again I can step the CB to see the NISL. No cue stick involved. It is at this point I move my cue stick onto the NISL. This can be done by a 1/2 tip pivot, or if you prefer, once you get used to CTE, you can just move your cue right onto the NISL in one movement as you come into full stance. That is typically what I do when not in demonstration mode.

The unique perception for every CB/OB orientation starts at full stance. My physical alignment to AL/SL is unique for every orientation. If you are looking to unravel the "magic" around CTE perceptions, that is where you need to be looking.

I agree that the magic part is whatever puts you on the shot line from where you started. As far as your video shows, you address all shots of a particular visual from the same body and cue position, which is a good foundation for understanding what happens next. I can't learn much else until I really understand how to find the NISL, much less understand why it matters for connecting the shot to the pocket.

 

[mohrt]

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I really am trying. You said above that each eye gives you a NISL, mm apart from each other. This seems to say that the NISL is already there before averting your vision but averting vision to the right edge makes one NISL stand out from the other. Is that right?

I'm still struggling with finding the NISL. I rewatched Stan's video 7 on stepping. You said that the NISL is found by imagining a line from the stepped cb to the core of the cue ball. It appears from video 7 that looking at the object ball is part of finding the NISL. If I look at the cb right edge all I can see is the white, featureless face of the cue ball in my peripheral vision. How is it possible to point the cue tip at that center if I can't look back at it? If I take my eyes off the edge then whatever center I saw will be lost.

I confused full stance with ball address. I though you were calling full stance the post NISL position. At least in the video I explained what I was calling it.

Yes the left and right edge make the left ccb and the right ccb stand out from one another. When you focus on the edge of the cb, think of the “white featureless cb face” like a flat disc and point your cue directly through it. Once the cue is there you can then switch your eye focus directly to ccb and dial in the cue stick. I think I mentioned that a couple posts back.

 

[Dan White]

Yes the left and right edge make the left ccb and the right ccb stand out from one another. When you focus on the edge of the cb, think of the “white featureless cb face” like a flat disc and point your cue directly through it. Once the cue is there you can then switch your eye focus directly to ccb and dial in the cue stick. I think I mentioned that a couple posts back.

I hate to be picky but what does the bold part mean? I'm going to look at the right edge, put the cue down on what my peripheral vision says is the ccb and I am going to point the tip at the core of the cb. Now my cue is likely not aligned to my body, which I take it I can change if necessary now that I have the NISL. Only after this point can I actually see the object ball. So what is the dialing in part about? Thanks.

 

[mohrt]

I hate to be picky but what does the bold part mean? I'm going to look at the right edge, put the cue down on what my peripheral vision says is the ccb and I am going to point the tip at the core of the cb. Now my cue is likely not aligned to my body, which I take it I can change if necessary now that I have the NISL. Only after this point can I actually see the object ball. So what is the dialing in part about? Thanks.

Yes point the tip through the cb center. If you look directly at the nisl it is easier to perfect the cue stick on the nisl. Once your cue stick is in place that assures you are looking at the correct nisl. I mean, if you switched your focus to opposite cb edge it will be very obvious the cue is not on that nisl. So getting the cue close is enough to switch focus from cb edge to nisl.

It is true you are not looking down the nisl with your traditional target shooting vision center. You are looking at it from an offset, so it won’t look like the way you are used to viewing the shot line and stroking the shot. I prefer this once I got used to it. Many use pro one, which puts your traditional vision center on the nisl. I explained that process difference several times in the thread.

 

[Dan White]

Yes point the tip through the cb center. If you look directly at the nisl it is easier to perfect the cue stick on the nisl. Once your cue stick is in place that assures you are looking at the correct nisl. I mean, if you switched your focus to opposite cb edge it will be very obvious the cue is not on that nisl. So getting the cue close is enough to switch focus from cb edge to nisl.

So the NISL is really defined by the cue shaft after I point it at the center of the cb as seen in my peripheral vision? If I look at center cb again after don't I lose sight of the NISL? It seems that if this is what you mean by "dialing in the cue stick" then am I not undoing the tip placement that I determined with the averted vision.

It is true you are not looking down the nisl with your traditional target shooting vision center. You are looking at it from an offset, so it won’t look like the way you are used to viewing the shot line and stroking the shot. I prefer this once I got used to it. Many use pro one, which puts your traditional vision center on the nisl. I explained that process difference several times in the thread.

I'm sure you did, but having this conversation feels like trying to learn how to play chess while being heckled. Forgive me a few oversights, if you would. I'm going to try what you said right now.