boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
So playing to win is wrong? I think maybe you should take up checkers... oh wait, they play to win too! Maybe go skip some rocks, but never count the skips, this just leads to wrongthink.
Are professionals supposed to call fouls on themselves?
- Thread starter 7Baller
- Start date
Integrity: Doing the right thing when no one is watching.
When no one is watching, I am not shooting….as a rule. Opponents eventually get the point.
Still doesn't have anything to do with calling a foul on yourself. I've been in a match more than once (paying close attention) and my opponent calls a foul. I didn't even see it. It's usually lightly touching the cue ball on a practice stroke before shooting the shot. Sometimes that's hard to tell sitting 15 feet away but my opponent knew it happened and he called the foul. How about this:
Integrity: Doing the right thing when you are not sure someone is watching.
Dunno about "professionals", but, honest people expect people to be honest, this includes ALL HUMANS.
Playing to win is fine. Lying to win by hiding your strength is not fine.
Oh no, I understand it, but I think it sucks and I think this attitude is so engrained in pool mentality that it causes pool to suck.
Not only that but anyone who has taken liberties with the rules and won know that thats a win with a giant shit stain beside it. Who wants to know they beat someone because they played loose with the rules instead of winning on outright merit?
Willowbrook Wolfy
Going pro
The last time I called a foul on myself was in a tournament. I was pinned behind a ball close to the rail and ended up double hitting the cb. The guy I was playing looked at me like I was nuts calling the foul on myself.
I’ll always call a foul. My opinion on the professionals is when there is a ref the ref should call it. People get away with holds and pushes all the time in sports. You don’t see them asking for a flag or a yellow card. If the ref doesn’t call it I would say I fouled but couldn’t be mad at an opponent for not with a ref there.
I’ll always call a foul. My opinion on the professionals is when there is a ref the ref should call it. People get away with holds and pushes all the time in sports. You don’t see them asking for a flag or a yellow card. If the ref doesn’t call it I would say I fouled but couldn’t be mad at an opponent for not with a ref there.All fine and proper except for the bettors.
I watched this match between Ronnie and Mark King live, and when Ronnie called a foul on myself, the referee did not see it. The referee then went to the booth and asked for a replay, and the man in the booth said he didn't see the foul either. But since Ronnie called it on himself, the foul was allowed to be a foul. I took a screenshot of the shot when it happened. I didn't see a foul either.
I think of it this way....
There are two types of foul. Totally obvious fouls (i.e. no rail, complete misses, etc.) and close call fouls.
If I'm playing someone and they are miss me making a totally obvious foul because they just aren't paying attention, they too bad for them. (Unless there are a very new player) This is in pool and I'm doing what 99% of player would do. Close fouls I'll call them as I see them... agree on the correct call/way I see them. BUT, it is always on the opponent to call over someone to watch a close shot if they think there is a chance of a foul.
I also play snooker and the ethics are a little different there, so I'll call everything... also a foul in snooker usually isn't as damaging to you, so calling them on yourself is no big deal.
Basically the it is completely different between pool and snooker. Pool, it's up to your opponent to call them. Snooker it is up to you.
There are two types of foul. Totally obvious fouls (i.e. no rail, complete misses, etc.) and close call fouls.
If I'm playing someone and they are miss me making a totally obvious foul because they just aren't paying attention, they too bad for them. (Unless there are a very new player) This is in pool and I'm doing what 99% of player would do. Close fouls I'll call them as I see them... agree on the correct call/way I see them. BUT, it is always on the opponent to call over someone to watch a close shot if they think there is a chance of a foul.
I also play snooker and the ethics are a little different there, so I'll call everything... also a foul in snooker usually isn't as damaging to you, so calling them on yourself is no big deal.
Basically the it is completely different between pool and snooker. Pool, it's up to your opponent to call them. Snooker it is up to you.
I play more golf than pool only because of the lack of proximity to a pool room. I apply the ethical standards of golf to both sports.
Billiards seems to be one of the few sports left where ‘honor’ is valued. Flagrantly ignoring the rules never seems to deter fans of football/basketball/NASCAR/etc. stars.
I tend to avoid shots that may put me in a position where, under intense pressure, my personal sense of honor might be tested. Nobody wants to lose, and who among us can say their self-discipline has never wavered?
I tend to avoid shots that may put me in a position where, under intense pressure, my personal sense of honor might be tested. Nobody wants to lose, and who among us can say their self-discipline has never wavered?
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If a ref is assigned to the table neither participant should have input on the matter.
Depends on the moral character of the characters.
It irritates me when people think there is something intrinsically good or bad about this subject. This is all about social norms.
When I played in the 90s no one called foul on themselves. It was on your opponent to play the role as the ref. This was also during the days of more money games than tournaments, etc. It wasn't considered cheating or low integrity, it was just the way the game was played.
I saw the shift in the early 2000s, probably with the influence of the Europeans. Pool began to make great strides in trying to clean up it's image. The colorful players like Keith and Earl started fazing out, and the new school started to be more about gentlemanly conduct and professionalism. One of those changes was the trend to call foul on themselves. Now this is pretty universal, and people who don't are considered uncouth.
To this day many old school players cling to the norms they grew up in. This isn't about a lack of integrity so much as a product of their environment.
So it's not good or bad to call fouls on oneself innately. It is all about how well the players stay in line with what most of the other players are doing. If you personally prefer a culture where we all call fouls on ourselves then that is fine, that's your preference. But it isn't 'Good'. It's just a preference. And it is definitely the norm right now so I will follow suit because that's what's expected. If the day came when it changed back then I'd be a fool to die on the hill and call fouls on myself if no one else did. It wouldn't make me 'Bad' for going along with the way the game was played by everyone else, it would make me normal.
When I played in the 90s no one called foul on themselves. It was on your opponent to play the role as the ref. This was also during the days of more money games than tournaments, etc. It wasn't considered cheating or low integrity, it was just the way the game was played.
I saw the shift in the early 2000s, probably with the influence of the Europeans. Pool began to make great strides in trying to clean up it's image. The colorful players like Keith and Earl started fazing out, and the new school started to be more about gentlemanly conduct and professionalism. One of those changes was the trend to call foul on themselves. Now this is pretty universal, and people who don't are considered uncouth.
To this day many old school players cling to the norms they grew up in. This isn't about a lack of integrity so much as a product of their environment.
So it's not good or bad to call fouls on oneself innately. It is all about how well the players stay in line with what most of the other players are doing. If you personally prefer a culture where we all call fouls on ourselves then that is fine, that's your preference. But it isn't 'Good'. It's just a preference. And it is definitely the norm right now so I will follow suit because that's what's expected. If the day came when it changed back then I'd be a fool to die on the hill and call fouls on myself if no one else did. It wouldn't make me 'Bad' for going along with the way the game was played by everyone else, it would make me normal.
Social norms? Billiards is not NFL football (where holding or late hits unseen by any ref is rewarded). Yes, the opponent is ‘referee’. But if someone I’m playing commits an obvious foul, and then continues to shoot (hoping I missed it), I typically won’t call it on him, but instead will just not play him again. If the day comes where cheating at pool is an accepted ‘social norm’, I will quit the game.