I never use the diamonds. How many of you do?

But if you are not using diamonds, how can you accurately make the determination that one particular table banks long or short.... especially when it might only be a half an inch difference on the first rail? It would all be guesswork with no tangible results.
Simple, you bank/kick one shot and pay attention. It is either short or long. You do what needs to be done to negate the effect. There's no more gauge of accuracy than if you got the hit or pocket you wanted. Did the ball come up short or long? Now you should be calibrated or well on your way to being so. Diamonds are supremely useful but you really don't need them. Look at the safety play in snooker. We could all learn a lesson from some of those shots. No diamonds, yet they do it.

Angles are angles, with or without diamonds. Diamonds are a reference for when you need bailed out. You should know the systems, but you really don't need them most of the time, just when funky stuff comes up. Be prepared for the funky stuff, but a good eye and feel gets you very close.
 
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Simple, you bank/kick one shot and pay attention. It is either short or long. You do what needs to be done to negate the effect. There's no more gauge of accuracy than if you got the hit or pocket you wanted. Did the ball come up short or long? Now you should be calibrated or well on your way to being so. Diamonds are supremely useful but you really don't need them. Look at the safety play in snooker. We could all learn a lesson from some of those shots. No diamonds, yet they do it.

Angles are angles, with or without diamonds. Diamonds are a reference for when you need bailed out. You should know the systems, but you really don't need them most of the time, just when funky stuff comes up. Be prepared for the funky stuff, but a good eye and feel gets you very close
You make it sound simple, but it's really not. I know of no instructor that teaches dead reckoning for bank and kick shots. It may work for you, but it is impossible to teach.

This may not be a great example, but I'll use it anyway... Let's say you're a flying an airplane without GPS or VOR. When you are navigating, is it more accurate to use observable navigational points, or dead reckoning?

Let's use your example... When you are setting up to check out a table and you go to hit a bank shot. What point on the rail are you aiming at to know if it's going long or short? If you determine the cue ball went long, where are you making the adjustment if you are not looking at a certain point on the rail?

And I'll ask it again... What instructors are teaching this method? Is it even possible to teach this method to someone? Or is it just the same old saying of hitting 1 million balls? I just can't get it through my head but you can say something is long or short without having a certain reference point to go by. What if it's just your judgment is off that day, and it's not the table?

I have so many questions about it. I'll try to find a video on this method and post it here.
 
You make it sound simple, but it's really not. I know of no instructor that teaches dead reckoning for bank and kick shots. It may work for you, but it is impossible to teach.

This may not be a great example, but I'll use it anyway... Let's say you're a flying an airplane without GPS or VOR. When you are navigating, is it more accurate to use observable navigational points, or dead reckoning?

Let's use your example... When you are setting up to check out a table and you go to hit a bank shot. What point on the rail are you aiming at to know if it's going long or short? If you determine the cue ball went long, where are you making the adjustment if you are not looking at a certain point on the rail?

And I'll ask it again... What instructors are teaching this method? Is it even possible to teach this method to someone? Or is it just the same old saying of hitting 1 million balls? I just can't get it through my head but you can say something is long or short without having a certain reference point to go by. What if it's just your judgment is off that day, and it's not the table?

If you know how a ball should react and it's reacting differently, you know if it's short or long. I can tell if a table/ball combination is playing short or long on the rail in between the diamonds. Use them if you need to or want to, but if you know what the ball should be doing it's pretty easy to see if it's banking long or short. It's really not a difficult thing, how equal is the angle? Is it wide or narrow from what you expect?

I have so many questions about it. I'll try to find a video on this method and post it here.
You're absolutely right, no instructor would teach this, even if it is teachable. It's not simple until it is. I'm not trying to say I never use them, I do except on 1 rail kicks because it's just your imagination and finding the mid point between balls. Most stuff I just see, but diamonds can be a reference on the strange. Rail conditions and spin change it anyway, so you better see/feel it no matter how you go about it. It's pretty much just experience and knowing enough of the systems to extrapolate what's going on. We no longer have to say our ABCs to know letters so we can read or write a sentence as it's learned and in out mind.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but if you see/visualize/feel a shot, you see a shot, no matter if it's straight in, a cut, a carom/billiard, a bank/kick whatever. I don't consider a kick for contact only a "good hit" as many do. I consider it the bare minimum but unless the OB goes in or a safety is locked down, it wasn't a good hit but rather handing your opponent another opportunity. That's never "good" even if it kept them from getting BIH.

Once you understand the systems and how to manipulate them, you really don't have to look at them much, except for the briefest of references. How many times do you have to look at multiplication tables? Probably never as it's internalized.

Oh, this is a bank from side pocket to second diamond, going to corner, but the OB is a quarter diamond down table (1 3/4 diamonds)? Ok, I'll parallel shift the natural bank in my mind then drive the OB to the mid point between that and the natural one. Plus I need to adjust if I'm using hold up or want the CB to run wild. You will rarely see me pointing with my cue unless it's to make my opponent think it was slop when it wasn't. I'll point at odd stuff or shape on another ball even if it's not the shape I'm going for. Might as well let them think I'm just lucky. Basically the stick pointing thing for me is only used as a distraction to give me time to actually properly feel/see the shot. The eyes see straighter than any visual distraction you will get from a stick flopping about.

I'm serious about this, your stick, in your line of vision is a visual distraction, the same as a template rack left on the table. I trust my eyes and body and I don't want them looking at objects not involved in the process. This may be just me, but if I have my stick out while getting on a shot, it's guaranteed to not be as accurate. Keep the visual distraction out of your vision and let your body line up with the reality on the table. A stick pointing at things isn't straight. It's neither at where it needs to be in your vision while standing or down on a shot. Why add something else to look at that isn't even in either shot picture, other than something to draw your eye away from the actual shot picture? Less distractions to draw your eyes to the wrong place, the better.

For example, if you know the 3 rail route that everybody knows, you should also know about the angle and where each leg hits the rail. It's a bit of experimenting from there. If you experiment with it, different spin and parallel shift, along with fly on the wall, you can get almost anywhere. Systems are just fine and I'll never bash diamond systems, it's just that I don't really need them much now. If you know what to expect from a cue ball and what english does you can get almost anywhere from just looking at the table.

The other thing is, on something like a 1 rail bank, you aim the ball so it goes in line with the pocket on the rail you're banking into. It's hard to explain, but figure an imaginary pocket out in space and that's your target. The thing is, it's not really though, you have to adjust speed and spin, found through experience and adaptation to the table conditions, as with any system. I can't explain it but you get to where you can sense angles and where the pocket is on banks without actually calculating it. Again, not teachable and no one will benefit from my ramblings, but it works. Every shot is a learning experience that is going into your pool shot computer.

So basically my "banking system" include parallel shift, cutting the distance in half, spin and speed when needed. A Z kick is figuring out where to hit the ball so it goes where you want it with the spot that looks right half way between the first rail contact and the pocket. I don't even care to try to explain it, and there may be a system out there just like this, but it works so I do it. If it doesn't work I either practice it until it does or find some other way of doing it. Once it clicks it clicks. Estimate half distances, mirrored angles, know speed and spin and just hit the shot.

It's probably dead wrong and not teachable but I'm ok with that, it does work. Let's go back to the multiplication table thing. How do you know it? You know it. How do you teach it? You write it out in a table or diagram and have the student study that until it's internalized. Once the student knows it, they don't have to look at a multiplication table when you ask them what 5 x 6 is.
 
Why for one purpose and not the other?
Not really sure, but when kicking or banking I just look at the rail, walk around the table and shoot the shot. I never have used an aiming or banking system. When playing straight pool and needing pinpoint position, I sometimes use the diamonds as a guide.
 
Not really sure, but when kicking or banking I just look at the rail, walk around the table and shoot the shot. I never have used an aiming or banking system. When playing straight pool and needing pinpoint position, I sometimes use the diamonds as a guide.
Thanks for the reply
 
I use the diamonds! They help me miss all kinds of shots! Seriously, i think a lot of shooters dont realize they use them, and like the man says, varies from table to table.
 
I used the diamonds for kicking systems, banking, position play, and safeties
Exactly, me too. Why would you not? I mean, the pro's probably see it in their heads but they are looking at something.

Though, my new table I just ordered, I did order with Mercury dimes as the "diamonds".... thought it would be a cool look ;)
 
Absolutely do.

Unfortunately though, I only know one application.
Yes, for bank shots and for kick shots. There are additional corrections, based on table, cushions, and cloth, and I was also taught to aim a bank as a cut shot if there is an identical table lined up with the one I'm playing on and I could aim at the corresponding pocket on the second table.
 
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Diamonds are players best friend :-)
As soon as I have to use a rail- no matter if it is a bank, kick or just for position play I use always "diamonds".
 
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The system gives a visual indication of how the naturally rolling ball arcs forward from the rail reflection.

I have been looking for a *.bmp, *.gif, *,jpg of a table with diamonds, proper pocket sizes, and nothing "on" the table so I can draw the drawing necessary to show how it works. But so far, I have run into no tables so drawn.
 

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Had a lady yesterday who was having problems with Bank shots. She had no ideas why there were diamonds on table.

Thirty minutes later she got some basic instructions, then was told to practice.

Think she will practice, and be a better banker.

Pointed her to Dr. Dave’s Utube channel as his instruction is easy to understand.👍
 
I don't really use the diamonds. Some diamond systems are great for teaching feel or natural ability.


I think this is how many of us work. I don't use a system with the diamonds but I sometimes use them as additional reference points along with the pockets. I am not likely to shoot a two or three rail bank without at least considering the diamonds but I am not going to calculate any numbers. The only system I used was poke and pray and since I gave up praying I'm now using the poke and hope system. I'll be teaching that as soon as my copyrights become official!;)

Hu
 
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