Predator Wisconsin 10 Ball

[Dead Money]

For me what makes the spot shot shoot out more interesting is a few small details:

* The 10 is spotted in the location it sits in a racked set of balls- harder than a regular spot shot.
* The cue ball moves back after a certain number of made attempts- it is progressive in difficulty.

I don't rate that second round of shots under pressure of elimination a gimmie even for great players.

 

[AtLarge]

Some stats for this event are now available here: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...illiards-series-10-ball-february-2022.540355/

 

[sjm]

I believe he said major event that was not an invitational, even though he did mention Kazakis win at the WPM. You are right that the WPM was a more competitive field over which Kazakis won, but the commentator Tony Robles was technically correct and he is a great commentator also. Maybe not at the level as JJ but he was good and provided great commentary.

First of all, Tony is a friend of mine for near 30 years. I've always adored him. He was an enduring credit to the New York City pool scene and to pro pool in general and when he moved to Florida just a few years ago, it was a great loss for New York City.

Sorry, but that's not what Tony said. He attempted to engage his audience in the fiction that Wisconsin was a major win and WPM wasn't because WPM was invitational. Probably unintentionally, he took a poke at an event title that has become, for the most part, the sole domain of only the truly elite. In the 11 WPM events prior to the one which Kazakis snapped off, 8 of them were won by a BCA Hall of Famer or near-certain future BCA Hall of Famer and 2 of the other 3 were won by a player currently carrying a Fargo over 800. Even the one other winner carries a Fargo of 783 at present, and yes, the event field is so stacked these days that a 783 who wins really is a Cinderella story.

So no, Tony wasn't technically correct, and his attempt to try to oversell the importance of this win by underselling the crowning achievement of Kazakis' career comes across as ridiculous to any informed fan of the game.

Should the day come when the CSI/Predator series regularly draws the kind of fields we typically find at the WPM, I'll be very pleased, but right now it's a fantasy. We'll see what kind of field they get at the Las Vegas Open, the next stop on the new event series., to be played in March.

 

[garczar]

First of all, Tony is a friend of mine for near 30 years. I've always adored him. He was an enduring credit to the New York City pool scene and to pro pool in general and when he moved to Florida just a few years ago, it was a great loss for New York City.

Sorry, but that's not what Tony said. He attempted to engage his audience in the fiction that Wisconsin was a major win and WPM wasn't because WPM was invitational. Probably unintentionally, he took a poke at an event title that has become, for the most part, the sole domain of only the truly elite. In the 11 WPM events prior to the one which Kazakis snapped off, 8 of them were won by a BCA Hall of Famer or near-certain future BCA Hall of Famer and 2 of the other 3 were won by a player currently carrying a Fargo over 800. Even the one other winner carries a Fargo of 783 at present, and yes, the event field is so stacked these days that a 783 who wins really is a Cinderella story.

So no, Tony wasn't technically correct, and his attempt to try to oversell the importance of this win by underselling the crowning achievement of Kazakis' career comes across as ridiculous to any informed fan of the game.

Should the day come when the CSI/Predator series regularly draws the kind of fields we typically find at the WPM, I'll be very pleased, but right now it's a fantasy. We'll see what kind of field they get at the Las Vegas Open, the next stop on the new event series., to be played in March.

Isn't the WPM invite only? If so the fields should always be stellar. This,imo, is like comparing a regular PGA event and a major. Both are great wins but beating a field of monsters in a major carries more weight.

 

[sjm]

Isn't the WPM invite only? If so the fields should always be stellar. This,imo, is like comparing a regular PGA event and a major. Both are great wins but beating a field of monsters in a major carries more weight.

Yes, I mentioned in my post that it is invitational. FYI, the WPM fields were not always stellar in the event's early years because the invitation methodology had yet to evolve and the fields were originally just sixteen players, but the fields are super-elite now.

Wisconsin was a very nice win for Kazakis and nobody is suggesting otherwise, but to call Wisconsin his first major is to engage in revisionist history. On top of the WPM, Alex Kazakis has won on the Eurotour, which typically has fields of over 200 players that are at least as tough as what we got at Wisconsin.

 

[VVP]

First of all, Tony is a friend of mine for near 30 years. I've always adored him. He was an enduring credit to the New York City pool scene and to pro pool in general and when he moved to Florida just a few years ago, it was a great loss for New York City.

Sorry, but that's not what Tony said. He attempted to engage his audience in the fiction that Wisconsin was a major win and WPM wasn't because WPM was invitational. Probably unintentionally, he took a poke at an event title that has become, for the most part, the sole domain of only the truly elite. In the 11 WPM events prior to the one which Kazakis snapped off, 8 of them were won by a BCA Hall of Famer or near-certain future BCA Hall of Famer and 2 of the other 3 were won by a player currently carrying a Fargo over 800. Even the one other winner carries a Fargo of 783 at present, and yes, the event field is so stacked these days that a 783 who wins really is a Cinderella story.

So no, Tony wasn't technically correct, and his attempt to try to oversell the importance of this win by underselling the crowning achievement of Kazakis' career comes across as ridiculous to any informed fan of the game.

Should the day come when the CSI/Predator series regularly draws the kind of fields we typically find at the WPM, I'll be very pleased, but right now it's a fantasy. We'll see what kind of field they get at the Las Vegas Open, the next stop on the new event series., to be played in March.

Ok I went back and listen to what was said in real time. Basically, Tony was postulating that this would be Kazakis' first major because the WPM had a field of only 32 and it was invitational. I didn't hear any derogatory comment about the WPM. The stream is free and everyone can listen and make their own conclusion.

You keep mentioning about the lack of high profile players in this event, but in my firstI reply to your original post in this thread I pointed out that there is a Matchroom event starting TOMMORROW that could have kept them away. Only Kazakis and Yapp, I believe, is playing in this tournament and will be flying to England to play in the PLP. It is entirely reasonable for the rest of top players to not play in this tournament. The commentators mentioned that the field will be bigger and more of the top players will be in Las Vegas. Not sure what you will say about the event then.

I know you are a good person and cares about Pool, but it seems to me that you are casting doubt about this Predator/CSI series. I hope I am wrong.

 

[sjm]

Ok I went back and listen to what was said in real time. Basically, Tony was postulating that this would be Kazakis' first major because the WPM had a field of only 32 and it was invitational. I didn't hear any derogatory comment about the WPM. The stream is free and everyone can listen and make their own conclusion.

You keep mentioning about the lack of high profile players in this match, but in my firstI reply to your original post in this thread I pointed that there is a Matchroom event starting TOMMORROW that could have kept them away. Only Kazakis and Yapp, I believe, is playing in this tournament and will be flying to England to play in the PLP. It is entirely reasonable for the rest of top players to not play in this tournament. The commentators mentioned that the field will be bigger and more of the top players will be in Las Vegas. Not sure what you will say about the event then.

I know you are a good person and cares about Pool, but it seems to me that you are casting doubt about this Predator/CSI series. I hope I am wrong.

I also listened to it again and I did not suggest that Tony had said something negative about WPM, but that the mere suggestion that this might possibly be Kazakis' first major title was inappropriate when referring to a holder of both a WPM title and Eurotour titles, both of which are harder to come by than the title at Wisconsin.

And no, I don't think that the Premier League Pool event explains why this field wasn't more elite. Several of the players in the Premier League Pool event field have made it clear that the CSI/Predator series doesn't interest them, among them America's best cueist. Participation here was made easy for them, as this event was just ten days after Derby City. As I said, though, if they get an elite field (shall we say 10 or more of the top 25 by Fargo and 10 of the top 25 Americans by Fargo) at the Las Vegas Open in March, the next CSI/Predator event, I'll happily stand corrected.

Yes, I'm casting doubt on this new series, which I badly want to see succeed. Of greater concern than poor participation among the international elites is that just three (Seaman, Sossei, Styer) of the top 35 Americans based on Fargo showed up to Wisconsin. Of the two Americans in the Premier League Pool event, only Skyler might have shown up at Wisconsin, so it could have been one more, but it's still a pathetic showing from America's best. I think getting to the bottom of why this tour isn't generating greater interest among the top players is time well spent, because it's not too late to do something about it. Your view is that there's no problem here, and oh how I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

 

[MattPoland]

Perhaps in fairness to the comment the WPM is the only other time Kazakis won $25k from snapping off a single event. Still have to recognize what Predator/CSI is putting into the sport with these events. The fact that these fields aren’t jam packed with elite talent is a shame both in terms of players ducking the event and in terms of the inability of this and Matchroom events to not schedule so tight with each other.

 

[garczar]

Perhaps in fairness to the comment the WPM is the only other time Kazakis won $25k from snapping off a single event. Still have to recognize what Predator/CSI is putting into the sport with these events. The fact that these fields aren’t jam packed with elite talent is a shame both in terms of players ducking the event and in terms of the inability of this and Matchroom events to not schedule so tight with each other.

Not enough to too many good events. Good problem to have except that this scheduling issue will get worse. The powers-that-be need to have a 'sit down' and whack out a doable worldwide schedule. There's room for everybody if they'd do it right. Pool has a LONG history of shooting itself in the foot. Time to holster those hoglegs boys.

 

[VVP]

I also listened to it again and I did not suggest that Tony had said something negative about WPM, but that the mere suggestion that this might possibly be Kazakis' first major title was inappropriate when referring to a holder of both a WPM title and Eurotour titles, both of which are harder to come by than the title at Wisconsin.

And no, I don't think that the Premier League Pool event explains why this field wasn't more elite. Several of the players in the Premier League Pool event field have made it clear that the CSI/Predator series doesn't interest them, among them America's best cueist. Participation here was made easy for them, as this event was just ten days after Derby City. As I said, though, if they get an elite field (shall we say 10 or more of the top 25 by Fargo and 10 of the top 25 Americans by Fargo) at the Las Vegas Open in March, the next CSI/Predator event, I'll happily stand corrected.

Yes, I'm casting doubt on this new series, which I badly want to see succeed. Of greater concern than poor participation among the international elites is that just two of the top 35 Americans based on Fargo showed up to Wisconsin. Of the two Americans in the Premier League Pool event, only Skyler might have shown up at Wisconsin, so it could have been three, but it's still a pathetic showing from America's best. I think getting to the bottom of why this tour isn't generating greater interest among the top players is time well spent, because it's not too late to do something about it. Your view is that there's no problem here, and oh how I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Could you please include the first leg, Arizona Open, in your spreadsheet for us to take a look.

I think your premise that there needs to be more top American players in the series for it to be successful is just plain wrong. I believe the focus is on an international audience hence FREE YouTube. SVB has his beef with this series for known reasons. Give him long sets, rack your own and winner break and he will be all set. Thing is SVB does not call the shots on Predator/CSI. When last SVB won something major? Now his presence is more like who is going to knock him out of the competition and how deep will he go.

 

[sjm]

Still have to recognize what Predator/CSI is putting into the sport with these events. The fact that these fields aren’t jam packed with elite talent is a shame both in terms of players ducking the event and in terms of the inability of this and Matchroom events to not schedule so tight with each other.

Absolutely! Predator and CSI are two of the giants in our sport and have done so much for pool over the years. Both have superior management and are ambitious.

The conception of this new tour SHOULD be a big moment in American pool, but the top American players aren't yet supporting this tour and international participation still needs to grow. It's a shame and, far too often over the years, I've been baffled by the failure of the top American players, considered as a group rather than individually, to sufficiently support the efforts of event producers that roll the dice on pool to give them a chance to earn a living within American borders.

At Wisconsin, Jeremy Seaman was the only American player that walked away with a payout that would have more than covered his participation expenses.

Can an America-based tour in which Americans cannot earn money succeed long-term? My fear is that the answer is no, which is why I want to see this tour gain greater support among the top players.

 

[sjm]

I think your premise that there needs to be more top American players in the series for it to be successful is just plain wrong. I believe the focus is on an international audience hence FREE YouTube.

That's the $64,000 question. Maybe you're right. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[HitHrdNDraw]

I think they were going for a format that is similar to tennis matches, but the execution is poor…. I have never liked formats where someone could lose more games and still win the match.

 

[VVP]

Jasmin Ouschan said it perfectly, "this is a format where anyone can beat you and you can also beat anyone." What more needs to be said??? The players who want to be guaranteed winning money need not apply and the show
will go on without them

Please watch Ozzy interview on Pool Player Podcast on YouTube. You will be able to see the thinking that went into developing the series. I am sure changes might be needed such as no 10 on the break and alternate break for these short sets, but those are not the deciding factors for the future of the series.

 

[Cameron Smith]

That’s funny. Obviously uninformed. I think pool has a problem defining what is one of “The Majors” and what is “a major”.

I feel like “The Majors” is World Pool Championship, US Open, Derby City Classic, and maybe a couple more events that have a strong tradition and clearly identify who is a world champion caliber player. Things like the UK Open is likely to be one very soon.

I feel like “a major” tournament is just another word for any tournament with pro level competition present. That could be the Predator series, Turning Stone, Swanee, NBL, Super Billiards Expo, etc.

Yes agreed, pool has always had issues with these terminologies. Some players even get retroactively assigned world championships. And other players will list resume that includes 70 “Majors”. For me, a Major is a tournament that includes the majority of the 30 players in the world and the tournaments with major status should be consistent.

 

[garczar]

If i walk with $200 more than i started with its a major.

 

[sjm]

Jasmin Ouschan said it perfectly, "this is a format where anyone can beat you and you can also beat anyone." What more needs to be said???

Unfortunately, the data suggests she is mistaken. Mike Page says it's as difficult to win a match in this format as winning a ten-ball race to eight. I actually think it's ever so slightly harder than that, but no matter. The major upsets just aren't happening in this format, and I think it will stay that way.

 

[easy-e]

Any of y’all watch the Bader/Yapp shootout? They each dogged 3 of their first 4 spot shots. The pressure is nutz.

 

[VVP]

Unfortunately, the data suggests she is mistaken. Mike Page says it's as difficult to win a match in this format as winning a ten-ball race to eight. I actually think it's ever so slightly harder than that, but no matter. The major upsets just aren't happening in this format, and I think it will stay that way.

What more empirical evidence do you need than the fact that Roland Garcia brought second in the Arizona Open and Bader Alawadi brought second in the Wisconsin Open?

Hope you read this:

2022 US PRO BILLIARD SERIES PRIZE FUND GROWS TO OVER THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION DOLLARS

CueSports International (CSI) and Predator Group are excited to announce that the 2022 US Pro Billiard Series will feature nearly a half million dollars in added prize money and a total prize fund of...

www.playcsipool.com

Does not look like something where a lot of thought was not put into.

 

[btal]

What more empirical evidence do you need than the fact that Roland Garcia brought second in the Arizona Open and Bader Alawadi brought second in the Wisconsin Open?

Hope you read this:

2022 US PRO BILLIARD SERIES PRIZE FUND GROWS TO OVER THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION DOLLARS

CueSports International (CSI) and Predator Group are excited to announce that the 2022 US Pro Billiard Series will feature nearly a half million dollars in added prize money and a total prize fund of...

www.playcsipool.com

Does not look like something where a lot of thought was not put into.

What is/are the issue(s) you have with the CSI link when it comes to a what you refer to as a lack of thought? Check out the pros sponsored by Predator. I don't think they'll stop supporting this tour. Do you?