The Simplest Aiming Systems to Visualize and Use

[CocoboloCowboy]

The real question, when you shoot it, does it FEEL right?

If the planned shot, and post shot C/B location is as planned.


Happy time.

 

[boogieman]

If the planned shot, and post shot C/B location is as planned.


Happy time.

Very happy time indeed! It's that fix that keeps us coming back to the table.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Very happy time indeed! It's that fix that keeps us coming back to the table.

Nice Varner was in Mesa, Az years ago for free demo. Before Christmas, poor turn out.

Nick said something about Pool being easy, sink you first ball, leave C/B in position to sink next ball, replete until you win.

 

[Dan White]

How did that happen, just because the math dazzled you? You admitted to never using or trying it!

Now, Dave, don't start flat out lying. You're better than that. I never said I never used or tried Poolology. Quite the opposite. You asked if I became an expert (don't remember your exact word) and use Poolology every time and I said no. I learned the method and was able to use it for Zone A and Zone B in maybe 10 minutes. I used it off and on and it works. However, I don't need it because I've been playing long enough that I know where to aim. Back cuts are a weakness if I had to pick one, but even those I make more than miss.

Page 1 through page 429 [re: exactly where does Stan explain why CTE works]. What page or pages can I find the secrets in YOUR BOOK?

I thought so...

 

[Dan White]

Did he say this? I think what he said was it makes one shot then you adjust from there, consciously (ticks) or subconsciously (see it, feel it, just do it and let the subconscious take care of it). I'll let him answer what he meant, @Dan White, what did you mean? Did you mean it makes one shot then you adjust in the ways I assumed above? I can't say if he's right or wrong without actually hearing what he meant. He knows but most discussion is shut down. By the point he's ready to answer he's been called names and the conversation derailed enough that no one knows what was asked in the first place.


Do you believe that one perception makes one shot? I think you do, especially if you understand the round barn, ticks, pivots etc. They are ways to adjust the "one shot" to the multiple shots that are needed. CTE does explain how to do this stuff but somehow most pro and anti CTE seem to not realize they are being shown how to do the stuff. One perception = one shot. The other ideas/methods presented in CTE are how you can get multiple angles from one perception. When you do the visual tricks in CTE, you are changing the perception to a different single perception that makes a different single shot. Easy stuff. In one paragraph, I've somehow distilled the truth. Was it that hard to understand CTE and how it works? Did it cost me anything to explain it? Does it harm CTE in any way? This is what we're asking, simple how and why. Asking for a concise answer isn't attacking CTE.


I'm not yet ready to tell him he is wrong. In fact he may be correct here. One perception = one shot. I don't think he has ever addressed the fact that the visual tricks, pivots and such are for getting multiple angles, aka fine tuning from there. It can be done subconsciously, so if this is his stance, he is correct. I don't know, @Dan White can you address this? It can also be done with visual tricks such as ticks, poking heads out, playing around with vision center, pivots, etc. If someone finds the correct shot with visual tricks/fine tuning, or doing it subconsciously, what's the difference?

I'll go out on a limb here and say that CTE gives you a way to do it, a methodology to trust in so you can perform the shot how it needs done. It keeps the doubting inner voice quiet and gives you confidence. (same with the "tips of english = diamonds" kicking system) At some point after you hit enough of the shot, you don't need the visual tricks and you just do it subconsciously/feel or however you want to explain it. Look harder into Pro One. The reason it is suggested to be learned after the others is because at that point you should have hit enough shots that you're ready for it. If you tried to teach Pro One or DP to a ripe beginner, they would probably fail. If you try to teach Basic CTE to a good player it seems odd because it's literally the training wheel stage of CTE. Once you can ride a bike training wheels get in the way. Maybe it would be more wise for a better player to only try basic enough to see if it passes the BS meter then move directly to Pro One or DP. If you know how to address the CB, pivoting does nothing. Meaning you can already pre-pivot and get onto the shot correctly without manual pivots.


Thank you, I do appreciate a clear answer.

boogie: first off, I think it is a good idea that cookie brought you in for an independent view. Just be aware that if/when you say he is wrong you'll be in hater bucket. BTW the CTEer insults don't really bother me. It's just defensive blather designed to ward us away from getting to the nut of the matter. It's like one of those birds that dive bombs and does all kinds of crazy behavior to keep you from finding the nest.

I have to say that if your description of CTE comes from the book then this is a CTE that is completely foreign to me. It doesn't even sound like mohrt's description of CTE, which is based on the book. If it is as you describe then it sounds like Stan threw in the towel and turned CTE into a fractional system. But we can figure that out. Maybe he is still making the same claims after all.

Here's what I'm saying: In basic pivot CTE if you want to make a straight in shot you have to use eta with an inside pivot. Many would argue, of course, that this depends on the bridge length and size of the pivot and so on. But, let's say you have calibrated everything such that an eta inside pivot does produce a straight in shot. Fine. I'm saying that if your straight in shot is now a 3 degree angle and you still want to hit center pocket, you must change something. The CTE system WILL NOT figure out for you that the balls are at a slight angle and now you will somehow be directed to a slight angle even though it is still an eta inside pivot. Similarly, a 10 degree cut would still be an eta inside pivot, right? CTE proponents would have you believe that, and I quote, "the balls present themselves differently depending on where they are on the table." Translation: If the two balls are straight in eta inside will provide a straight shot line. If the balls are off 10 degrees to the pocket then eta inside will also provide a 10 degree cut angle WITHOUT THE SHOOTER DOING ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY.

Cookie says:

One perception = one shot. Totally agree.
Multiple perceptions come from a 15 inside reference dependent on the shot at hand

OK what the hell does this mean? mohrt would say the same thing but you could never get a straight answer. cookie - care to clarify what you mean in bold?

Now, boogie, can you clarify what you mean by making adjustments for the 3 degree or 10 degree shot using eta inside pivot? Why would you make adjustments if CTE puts you on the shotline objectively and without player judgment?

I think we have enough that needs clarification before proceeding to the next step, agreed?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Now, Dave, don't start flat out lying. You're better than that.

You do it all the time. But it could be truth in your own mind. It's still way out in the universe though and off base.

I never said I never used or tried Poolology. Quite the opposite. You asked if I became an expert (don't remember your exact word) and use Poolology every time and I said no. I learned the method and was able to use it for Zone A and Zone B in maybe 10 minutes. I used it off and on and it works. However, I don't need it because I've been playing long enough that I know where to aim. Back cuts are a weakness if I had to pick one, but even those I make more than miss.

If it was that good, I would think it might have helped in some area of the game that's not up to your level of expectations.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think Dan is 100% wrong. A 15 inside is what he is actually talking about. He thinks it only makes one shot. I know it makes shots from multiple angles He won’t ever believe me.

Herein lies the problem that doesn't sink into his/their brains because they have NEVER seen the two parts of the CB on the two parts of the OB simultaneously. They haven't trained themselves to do it and don't even know what the hell it looks like.
It certainly can't be done by being a noser, which they are. But I fully understand as a hard core noser myself to find contact points, equal and opposite contact points, or fractions. Stick with that and CTE will never make sense because it just flat out doesn't work that way. With contact points or fractions beyond two or three degrees, you're now searching for a different contact point or fraction to match up across the equator of the OB as well as the CB. Pretty tough to pick out in the thickest fat part of the belly between two unmarked balls. Hell, it was tough to do even with Joe Tucker's MARKED TRAINING BALLS.
CTE will never make sense or be close to effective until this visual becomes 2nd nature and automatic.

And absolutely YES, it makes shots from multiple angles with that same visual until it doesn't make shots and you then go to the next visual, but you'll know immediately from experience.

 

[cookie man]

Dan the bolded part means, throw two balls out, determine if the 15 inside works, perform the necessary CTE steps and make the ball. In the group of 15 inside perceptions one does not work better then the others. They all work the same, you get the same result from each. You achieve your goal of center pocket music.
I know you don’t agree with this already. You never have. That’s why I would like more participation from others so that you could maybe understand it’s you having the problem and not the system.

But since you don’t agree then do what you’ve never done. Tell us exactly which 15 inside perception works as it should. You know, the one that actually works and then we make all of our adjustments off of. What is the perfect set up for a 15 inside? Might as well include the 15 outside and the 30 and 45 as well. Let’s take the discussion all the way, what the hell

 

[Dan White]

Dan the bolded part means, throw two balls out, determine if the 15 inside works, perform the necessary CTE steps and make the ball. In the group of 15 inside perceptions one does not work better then the others. They all work the same, you get the same result from each. You achieve your goal of center pocket music.
I know you don’t agree with this already. You never have.

What is a group of 15 inside perceptions? That's new to me. Can you clarify?

 

[BC21]

A dead straight in shot. ETA with an inside pivot according to Dan only makes a dead straight in shot. I believe it makes quite a few shots in the center of the pocket. It’s not a trick question

Straight in = pivot from the outside

 

[BC21]

........

....does it look right or not? If not poke your head a bit and it will look right. .....so in the end, it looks right or it doesn't. SEE the shot, FEEL the shot, SHOOT the shot.

This is a great explaination of the "why" it works. As with any task that requires visuals (recognizing, understanding, and knowing what you're seeing), you absolutely must have the ability to know when it looks right and when it looks wrong. That knowledge or recognition is gathered through experience, and that's what most of us call "feel". In other words, you either FEEL like you're on the correct shot line or you don't, based on visual inputs.

 

[Dan White]

This is a great explaination of the "why" it works. As with any task that requires visuals (recognizing, understanding, and knowing what you're seeing), you absolutely must have the ability to know when it looks right and when it looks wrong. That knowledge or recognition is gathered through experience, and that's what most of us call "feel". In other words, you either FEEL like you're on the correct shot line or you don't.

The CTEers will tell you that the experience needed is in seeing and performing the perception itself, not seeing the pocket and judging that the shot is on.

 

[BC21]

The CTEers will tell you that the experience needed is in seeing and performing the perception itself, not seeing the pocket and judging that the shot is on.

That's fine. They can tell me that all they want. I could say every shot between 22° and 38° can be made by simply referencing a halfball aim. With enough practice, the mind will figure out all the subtleties.

 

[cookie man]

What is a group of 15 inside perceptions? That's new to me. Can you clarify?

Everything seems to be new to you. It’s all the shots that you use a 15 inside on. There is a whole group of them. There is no specific angle range.
Now what is that one shot that you can make with the 15 inside? Please explain

 

[cookie man]

The CTEers will tell you that the experience needed is in seeing and performing the perception itself, not seeing the pocket and judging that the shot is on.

And the cters would be right if they were using CTE for the shot. Do you doubt that? If so then why?

 

[cookie man]

That's fine. They can tell me that all they want. I could say every shot between 22° and 38° can be made by simply referencing a halfball aim. With enough practice, the mind will figure out all the subtleties.

And if that’s the way you want to do it great. I have no problem with it.

 

[cookie man]

A

This is a great explaination of the "why" it works. As with any task that requires visuals (recognizing, understanding, and knowing what you're seeing), you absolutely must have the ability to know when it looks right and when it looks wrong. That knowledge or recognition is gathered through experience, and that's what most of us call "feel". In other words, you either FEEL like you're on the correct shot line or you don't, based on visual inputs.

And if a CTE user thinks it doesn’t look right we stand up and reset to pivot from the others side. The inside pivot or outside pivot will look right. That is the choice we make

 

[BC21]

A

And if a CTE user thinks it doesn’t look right we stand up and reset to pivot from the others side. The inside pivot or outside pivot will look right. That is the choice we make

You also choose, based on your personal level of experience, what constitutes a "tick" or whatever when "stepping" the cb. And you choose what visuals to use and must decide whether or not you feel like you're locked into those visuals.

My point was simply that all aiming methods require visual inputs. And acting on those visual inputs requires knowing or recognizing whether or not you're looking at the right things.

 

[cookie man]

You also choose, based on your personal level of experience, what constitutes a "tick" or whatever when "stepping" the cb. And you choose what visuals to use and must decide whether or not you feel like you're locked into those visuals.

My point was simply that all aiming methods require visual inputs. And acting on those visual inputs requires knowing or recognizing whether or not you're looking at the right things.

I agree. And CTE is a visual system that leads to a precise point dictated by the reference lines used in CTE. It’s not a get close and search system like some think.

 

[cookie man]

I agree. And CTE is a visual system that leads to a precise point dictated by the reference lines used in CTE. It’s not a get close and search system like some think.

And you precise exact points with poolology from what I hear.