VTEC John
Active member
Johnny, doesn't the bending of a wood shaft have an impact on deflection? If not, what's the point of a laminated predator or a carbon fiber shaft?
Thicker shaft produces more deflection?!
- Thread starter VTEC John
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But the fat guy is still going to look funnier.
What's important is how much of the front of the stick the tip-ball contact moves to the side, and especially how much that part of the stick weighs. The part that is moved to the side is called the "end mass". It certainly seems like a stiffer shaft ought to get more of the front of the stick involved in the hit, but that doesn't seem to be the case for the cues in use these days, including the various tapers and materials.
It seems like it should have more effect but it doesn't.
It would be interesting to see if a light but very stiff cue could be built that had a lot of squirt. Or at least slightly interesting to some.
VTEC John
Active member
Predator was the first to bore out the tip end of the shaft to reduce squirt (they even have a patent on the hole). Laminations don't affect squirt - they're a way of using lower grade maple without warpage.
I think CF can be very lightweight (low squirt), even though it's 3 times as dense as maple, because it's strong enough to be hollow with very thin walls - which also means it can be stiff. And it's far more sturdy than maple.
pj
chgo
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Only some carbon come same as my Z2 too. It have (semi)conicaI taper.I have not yet seen less deflection than Z2 anywhere with normal pool cue standards. Patrick Johnson´s cue is probably lower but i think it is more snooker cue
I agree pro taper with low mass end would be super low squirt. I can’t make a ball with them-so has to be why.
A conical taper like a 3C cue or some ash snooker cues seem to have the most imo.
I’m not a expert on this topic. As much as I know about pool, this topic I’m about the dumbest guy around.
Keeping it real,
Fatboy
One of the reasons the stiffness of the shaft isn't able to have much affect on squirt is that there is a lot of give in your hand and your fingers because the skin and muscles of your bridge hand and fingers can "squish" and get pushed around by the shaft pushing against it. This allows the shaft to be able to move to the side some at impact just because it compresses/pushes the meat of your hand/fingers over and because of that you get a similar effect and the ability for it to actually bend is no longer very important or necessary because it gets the same effect due to the meatiness of the hand.
DR. DAVE….CALLING DR. DAVE….YOUR ARE NEEDED IN THE FORUM…..DR. DAVE…..CAN YOU HEAR ME?
He really does offer the most reliable analytics I’ve ever seen, his explanations are always spot on, and his video
illustrations with use of high speed photography have always been masterful. We need him to resolve this debate.
Besides, he always backs up his objective conclusions with actual evidentiary proof on his website….He’s reliable.
He really does offer the most reliable analytics I’ve ever seen, his explanations are always spot on, and his video
illustrations with use of high speed photography have always been masterful. We need him to resolve this debate.
Besides, he always backs up his objective conclusions with actual evidentiary proof on his website….He’s reliable.
Go to the link below and click on "stiffness effects" and you can see what Dr. Dave has to say about how shaft stiffness affects squirt. Click on all the rest of the links on that page to learn a whole bunch more about squirt.
Squirt and Cue Ball Deflection - Dr. Dave Pool Info
Answers to frequently-asked questions (FAQs) about how to judge and compensate for cue ball deflection (squirt) in pool shots with sidespin (english).
billiards.colostate.edu
Thanks…….I’ve visited that section……I understand squirt……I only play with original maple shaftsGo to the link below and click on "stiffness effects" and you can see what Dr. Dave has to say about how shaft stiffness affects squirt. Click on all the rest of the links on that page to learn a whole bunch more about squirt.
Squirt and Cue Ball Deflection - Dr. Dave Pool Info
Answers to frequently-asked questions (FAQs) about how to judge and compensate for cue ball deflection (squirt) in pool shots with sidespin (english).
that I specified the size, weight and taper to the cue maker. My post was intended to invite Dr. Dave
to render an impartial opinion, sort of as a referee, so that those that disagree might find agreement.
I get it but he has already given his answer to that exact question right there on that page which is why I referred you and others that are curious as to his thoughts on the topic so that you can get them. He says that the shaft stiffness has essentially no direct effect on the amount of deflection/squirt. He also goes into all the additional detail on the topic that anyone might desire for those that want to learn as much as they can.
Eric; of All the cue games, in 3C players use the Most English 98% of the time than any other game. Why is it then, 99% of 3C players use a 11.8-12mm tip/Conical shaft. LD shafts for 3C have been in use for about 10-15 years, I'd say about 50% of 3C players use them. CF shafts have come into 3C lately since, 'Covid 19' because the Top players have had that down time from tournament play to get use to them, the 'Learning curve.' The Best 3C player in the World still use a, 'Conventional' 3C shaft, Frederic Caudron plays with a Longoni FC shaft solid 1 piece wood, (non laminated or LD)!I agree pro taper with low mass end would be super low squirt. I can’t make a ball with them-so has to be why.
A conical taper like a 3C cue or some ash snooker cues seem to have the most imo.
I’m not a expert on this topic. As much as I know about pool, this topic I’m about the dumbest guy around.
Keeping it real,
Fatboy
It would be fun to make an over-under bet with a buddy on how many pages this topic would get to within three days and then start the thread.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Carbon fiber shafts are significantly stiffer than wood yet they have low deflection. I don't think the end mass is significantly lower although the shaft balances slightly closer to the joint so that may be a factor. Anyway, the shaft stiffness doesn't seem to be a major factor.
Snooker cues inspired the design - I just switched the ash and brass to maple and plastic and added the hole. Ed Young made it to my specs.Only some carbon come same as my Z2 too. It have (semi)conicaI taper.I have not yet seen less deflection than Z2 anywhere with normal pool cue standards. Patrick Johnson´s cue is probably lower but i think it is more snooker cue
pj <- hope Predator doesn't sue me for the hole
chgo
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I believe their patent has expired.
Glad to see there is finally a discussion covering deflection.
VTEC John
Active member
Thanks to all, esp. Dr. Dave. I've been made a believer. Imagine a guy, average build, wearing, say, round toed brogues, kicking a soccer ball (with his toe) at the point we would call right side english. The ball squirts left. Then another guy, same height and weight, and wearing the same size and kind of shoes but more of his body mass happens to be below his waist--and he has massive calves and thick ankles. He kicks the ball with the same force as the first guy. It's easy to envision that the second kick is going to send the ball further left--more deflection.
According to Bob, his Red Dot shafts would bend upon CB contact, therefore sending the CB in a straighter path towards the OB.So, what you're saying is taper does affect squirt
And I disagree stiffness has negligible effect. Take a steel shaft with minimal end mass and compare it to an identical wood shaft
Giving it more thought, I think it has MORE to do with than people think. Regardless of how light the end of the shaft is, if it's not bending then the CB will.
