Always with the technicalitiesNo way!
pj <- well, maybe after it hits something
chgo
Who knows what "center cue ball" control is about? Robin Dreyer knows and teaches this concept.
- Thread starter Bobkitty
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I'll go out on a limb and say there is no 500 or above who plays without sidespin. On many shots it is the only way to get position and on many more shots, it is the easiest, surest way.
That having been said, when a student asks about how to play position, I like to start with, "What happens if you just roll the cue ball without any (added) spin?" If that gets good position that's probably the best way to play the shot. Note that a shot like that is not stun run through.
I agree, but there are many good players who will say that they try to minimize spin on every shot, and when they do use spin, they use less than people think, and they try to restrict it to shots where the distance (CB-OB) and/or (OB-pocket) are less.
I remember seeing a BBC video that was part of the 'intermission entertainment' in a late 1990s snooker match, and the player (Willie?), showed how he could make the shot and get the cue ball to a particular point on the table either by using medium pace with some spin, or a slightly harder pace without spin. I believe he was trying to encourage people to minimize the use of spin on long shots.
And another snooker video had the player (Ronnie?) showing how a spin shot can go three rails for position, but a no-spin shot can go four rails and give the same position, and five rails would work even better.
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Back when the world was new and the old timers in the halls mostly sat at the counter and laughed at the youngsters you could watch beginners go through stages. First was merely pocketing balls. Not too much later spin was discovered and almost every shot was hit with extreme spin to see the cue ball go zinging around the table. Many a cowboy never got past this stage! Then spin becomes a tool to use when needed. If a person develops enough they learn advanced pattern play and using speed and angles. More than one player has shook their head at all of the effort put into learning to use and deal with spin only to find out it was rarely needed!
Today's players have came to rely on spin as the primary tool to control the cue ball, so much so that they may not consider other options. A few years back I watched a match where the best in the world lost two games for going all of the way around the table to get shape when a simple follow shot was probably 90%+ for him to get the cue ball where he wanted it. He apparently never considered one or two rail follow and ran into traffic trying to go around the table both times giving control of the table to his opponent.
Always right to play the shot you are most comfortable with but all options should be considered. I would say it is very rare when KISS isn't the best option. Sometimes that is all the way around an open table, sometimes it is a gentle nudge and rolling up a few inches on a crowded table. Whatever results in the highest percentage of wins. Some prefer to think of themselves as process oriented but the only reason for the process most of the time is to win. I prefer to be goal oriented and the process is just the means to the end. Whichever process works best is the one I try to use.
Hu
Today's players have came to rely on spin as the primary tool to control the cue ball, so much so that they may not consider other options. A few years back I watched a match where the best in the world lost two games for going all of the way around the table to get shape when a simple follow shot was probably 90%+ for him to get the cue ball where he wanted it. He apparently never considered one or two rail follow and ran into traffic trying to go around the table both times giving control of the table to his opponent.
Always right to play the shot you are most comfortable with but all options should be considered. I would say it is very rare when KISS isn't the best option. Sometimes that is all the way around an open table, sometimes it is a gentle nudge and rolling up a few inches on a crowded table. Whatever results in the highest percentage of wins. Some prefer to think of themselves as process oriented but the only reason for the process most of the time is to win. I prefer to be goal oriented and the process is just the means to the end. Whichever process works best is the one I try to use.
Hu
That's interesting, I've noticed with the current growth in pool and, more importantly, the newer players actually trying to get better (at least in my area) and taking lessons to learn pattern play, I see very few of the better players in our area relying on spin. Not that they don't, I just see the majority of them using it properly and not getting crazy. Of course there is that small percentage of them that do but, in general, it's the minimum needed. And of course, there are the lower skilled players who are just learning spin so use it on every shot resulting in what one would expect
Also, I am an old school player and tend to use more English than most, although it's very limited these days, in the old days I was the guy who would go around the table or draw when a simple follow worked. A few years ago I seriously focused on changing that and think I've done very well, I move the CB much less than most of the people I play, but a while back I was in WY at a tournament and my match was being watched by the top dogs in the room and I remember hearing one of them say - he shoots old school. Gave me a warm and fuzzy
It is different that what has been explained and discussed. I offered it as food for thought and a way of practicing
a steady straight cue stroke that has to extend through and beyond the cue ball’s stationary position. Anyone with
a home table can improve much faster if they employ good practice routines emphasizing cue ball delivery & control.
Roger and agreed. When I started putting serious time into improving my play I mainly practiced the Mighty X and one of Darren Appleton's videos where 14 of the balls are placed a ball away from the rails at every diamond and 15 is in the middle - shoot them in rotation. Honestly, it's frustrating as hell and I've never finished it (got close a few times) but, it definitely improved my play because let's face it, most every shot is a cut shot and by doing that drill I became much more proficient at learning how minute changes in English can affect the ball (EDIT - coming off the rail).
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I like that drill. Next time I’m at the pool hall I’ll check it out. Since there are 18 diamonds on the table,
not including the 6 open pockets, do you prefer to leave the foot rail or the head rail open? I presume
the first ball in the lineup on either side rail is the 1 ball, followed by the 2 ball, then the 3 ball, etc. My
initial impression never having attempted this is it seems like it would make you practice some tough
cut shots and likely become enormously frustrating if you over cut the OB or use too much speed. I’d
imagine CB rebound speed off the rail has to be pretty precise. Yup, this sounds like a kick my ass drill.
I practice the stun run through quite a bit. Earl Strickland and Efren Reyes use a ton of English (almost said used) and Strickland recommends using spin constantly in his commentary even on the money ball.
One of the bigger benefits to using spin is you can shoot balls in softer so they don’t rattle in those Diamond tables with old cloth.
One of the bigger benefits to using spin is you can shoot balls in softer so they don’t rattle in those Diamond tables with old cloth.
Oops, it's Max Eberle
(I normally watch Darren's drills)And, I forgot a little tidbit, the four closest diamonds to the corners on the long rail are left empty. 4 per long rail (2 each side of sides) and three end rails.
Thanks, I was thinking of a basic, different pattern.Oops, it's Max Eberle
And, I forgot a little tidbit, the four closest diamonds to the corners on the long rail are left empty. 4 per long rail (2 each side of sides) and three end rails.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I seem to get more travel with spin. I can send the cue ball a good ways (and sometimes near the proper direction) with spin and a medium stroke, without spin it seems to take a lot more stroke.
He's got me using more than I should. I'm new to English so I'm sort of overdoing it to the best of my ability to learn. I can definitely see the value in learning to get good position with vertical axis hits and using a little bit of sidespin for really zeroing in on position.
I like Appleton's drills because most of them don't have a bunch of balls to reset when I mess up. This game is frustrating enough!Oops, it's Max Eberle
I read this paragraph three times and I can’t make any sense of it at all, and I’ve played pool for 55 years.
Get back to me when you learn how to play inside the cue ball.
I'd go a step further and say that above, say 650-700 fargo, most players use at least a trace of spin on most of their shots. There are too many reasons to go into in detail, but for the benefit of the OP here are some of the most important:
1. It unlocks the diagonal paths of the pool table. When a ball is on or very close to the rail, as a lot of balls are, the best way to move through or to the center of the table is to use sidespin. Getting to the center of the table is vital to keep angles. Also, moving diagonally will more easily allow you to move "into" angles rather than across them. Using no sidespin will often result in limiting the achievable angles of shots on the rail, and going straight back and forth or up and down the table, which IMO is not good.
2. Using sidespin will let you shoot softer. Outside spin, especially, will let you shoot softer withouth getting cling or kicks. It will also straighten the object ball path on the soft shots, increasing the accuracy of the shot.
3. You will need to use sidespin in a rack anyway, you might as well play with it to get used to the deflection etc and keep in "touch" with the table. If you play sidespin once a rack, it's harder to adjust IMO.
4. Sidespin will help you fine tune your speed. If an angle is sort off "off" where you either have to shoot too hard or to soft to achieve your goal, sidespin helps you kill or move the cueball. Stops you from soft rolling or banging shots. Importantly, it helps keep your shots in a more consistent and optimal speed range for your stroke to be maximally accurate and for ball reaction to be predictable.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
One of the more useful aspects of sidespin I've found is changing the angle of banks. If a ball prevents me from hitting the rail where I want and the bank will go a little short, I can send the ball a bit further with some spin. When I get it right, it feels like magic.
That's how I feel. Virtually every player uses english on a frequent basis. Even beyond creating the position paths, the method of using english to overcome collision induced throw on cut shots has been around forever and remains in extremely common use at every level of play.
I believe that today's top players use as much english as any other generation of players, but their cueing is so accurate that their pocketing doesn't slip noticeably because of it.
Well said, and sidespin is needed to beat certain kisses on bank shots, too.