Will 4 inches pockets be the future of US pool, bar box and big table?

JCL said:
Watch the biggest promoter of today? What size are they using? I understand that is not for recreational players, but instead for the future pro events
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If the future is tiny fields for small purses, this seems like the answer. I understand why elite pros want the tightest possible tables. It makes sure the best player wins. Same reason the best pro golfers like long, tough layouts. If there were tens of thousands of extremely high quality players in the US making a full-time go of playing pool, it would be a great strategy. To my mind, the secret to the future of the game is bigger fields and more players willing to have a go in pro tournaments. If that's what you want, you need to put some gamble back in the game. Loosen up the tables, shorten the sets, no more template racks, and break from anywhere behind the string. If you do that, there might be enough fish in the field to make the game worthwhile.
 
tomatoshooter said:
That's brutal. I think if a ball hits nothing but pocket facing it should drop.
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Thx, thats soothing for my ego, helps me feel like I suck less than I actually do. To be fair, best I can measure them with my cheap Amazon angle tool, they come in somewhere between 143-144, but definitely on the very outer edge of the “WPA pro” specs tolerances. I’m a BW lover but it sort of soured me on the concept of the $10k ish TE option. New picky CG buyers are better off getting a standard issue GC for about a grand less and shelling out extra $$ to have a top notch table tech set it up exactly as desired. To be fair to BW, they advertise their table specs to fall within a size range with some generous +/- tolerances and I apparently ended up on the hairy edge. Doesn’t say much for their quality control. Live & learn…
 
mikemosconi said:
I firmly believe that opening a new room today for the general public would be most successful with 4 3/4 pockets as the standard for the room. One can always add a few tables to satisfy one pocket players and advanced players who would want 4 1/2 or possibly a bit less.

Nothing would kill the joy of the general public more than trying to play on tight pockets. I also believe that properly set up 4 1/2 inch pockets are just fine to enjoy watching any professional level of play and as a method for more advanced amateur players to hone their skill.
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Your right Sir, thats what Gandy's so popular back when they were everywhere they had big pockets so every level of player could make balls and show off for their friends and thats what makes the game fun. I relate big pockets to the APA ranking system, it gives the ball bangers a chance to win even against a higher skill player.

For the Pro's or the Fargo rated over 640, have at it!
 
phreaticus said:
they advertise their table specs to fall within a size range with some generous +/- tolerances and I apparently ended up on the hairy edge. Doesn’t say much for their quality control.
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I wonder how much is in assembling the table, could a mechanic shove the rails to the innermost clearance of the bolt holes or pull them to the outside limit, and get a noticeable difference in pocket size? You are stuck with the facing angles, though.
 
JCL said:
Well, reality is that 4" pockets will benefit your game and for the people that think that is to narrow and almost impossible to play hard shots or move the cue ball around, did you see the pool masters? If they tell you they were playing on 4.5" you would have believe them.
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They also are playing on brand new cloth under tv lights.
 
tomatoshooter said:
I wonder how much is in assembling the table, could a mechanic shove the rails to the innermost clearance of the bolt holes or pull them to the outside limit, and get a noticeable difference in pocket size? You are stuck with the facing angles, though.
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Its a very good question. CGs are definitely much more sensitive creatures that need properly fitted, like getting a custom 1911 to run smooth vs a Diamond which just sets up easy from the factory and runs perfect like a Glock. I don’t know… It seems perhaps plausible that improperly tightened rail bolts could pull stuff out by small margins. Maybe I need to do something as simple as check my rail bolt torque values. Interesting, thanks.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
Ok, so that's too extreme for you. Lets try a Diamond or some off brand table more likely, with 4 inch pockets, then. Keep in mind that on tv tournaments, the rubber is warmed by lights, and the cloth is close to brand new. The table has most likely been set up by the best in the industry. What happens when the regular installer puts on the cloth and it's allowed to stay on for 6 months or a year or more? Well, the pockets may not play perfect, maybe the angles are off a little, the facings can get worn out and the cloth sticky. Add some humidity to that and every A player will look like an APA 5. Fantastic, they'll all love that. Nothing like looking stupid in front of a bunch of guys, your date or whatever, to put a spring in a mans step. The APA 5's on the other hand won't pot a ball an hour. THEY are going to absolutely LLOOOOOVE that. I bet they'll overwhelm the pool halls with their presence.
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At a local pool hall there is a Diamond with 4 1/8th corners, old worn out rubber, and cloth over 5 years old and its absolutely brutal. I estimate the angles at about 137^. My friend who likes to hammer all his shots and play mainly center ball loves it. Personally I wont play on it because I can't make balls without hammering everything and then I quickly miss a shot and end up losing to him like every game. However, if we go on the 4.5" Diamond I tend to win more as he is constantly hanging balls because he hits them too hard....

IMHO people who see these tables on a stream and think they are so great have never played on them or seen someone play on them when they are rundown and the cloth is worn in. The game turns into a shotmaking contest where every ball is hammered in 100mph to minimize throw and force cueball movement because cheating the pocket is impossible making many good position players turn into weak position players unless they can hammer the ball to make up for the lack of ability to cheat the pockets.
 
Swighey said:
Not an overreaction, it's my opinion and always has been when these comparisons are made. Golf is far more than being about putting ball in a hole and the non-hole features of a course have a far bigger impact than the size of the hole. Hence I think these comparisons are "ridiculous" and not well thought out. My apologies if "ridiculous" came across as a personal attack and you felt that you ought to throw one back. That certainly wasn't my intention and maybe ridiculous was a poor choice of word. As I said, my apologies - you are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am.
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Irving Crane believed that pocket billiards had a lot in common with putting in golf, in terms of stroke/swing mechanics.
 
sjm said:
Irving Crane believed that pocket billiards had a lot in common with putting in golf, in terms of stroke/swing mechanics.
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Yes I think there are many similarities in terms of stroke for sure. I think this could be also be said for many other sports, just that the stick, ball and hole similarity makes it more noticeable with billiards and golf.
 
pw98 said:
At a local pool hall there is a Diamond with 4 1/8th corners, old worn out rubber, and cloth over 5 years old and its absolutely brutal. I estimate the angles at about 137^. My friend who likes to hammer all his shots and play mainly center ball loves it. Personally I wont play on it because I can't make balls without hammering everything and then I quickly miss a shot and end up losing to him like every game. However, if we go on the 4.5" Diamond I tend to win more as he is constantly hanging balls because he hits them too hard....

IMHO people who see these tables on a stream and think they are so great have never played on them or seen someone play on them when they are rundown and the cloth is worn in. The game turns into a shotmaking contest where every ball is hammered in 100mph to minimize throw and force cueball movement because cheating the pocket is impossible making many good position players turn into weak position players unless they can hammer the ball to make up for the lack of ability to cheat the pockets.
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You don't have to hit them harder, the smaller the pocket the less speed you should use.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
You want the ultimate, tight pocket game, look no further than Chinese 8 ball. No pool table comes close to the difficulty of those corner pockets. NONE other than blackball, but it doesn't really count, smaller balls and tables, different characteristics.. I like Chinese 8 ball, played it quite a bit, even participated in an open tournament. Sadly, nobody wants to play it in my country, and it seems true of most of the Western world. People get frustrated and quit. These are not Mickey Mouse players either, but great cueists from all kinds of cue sports. You can play 9 ball on that table too. I've yet to see anyone play more than a couple of games of that before they quit. Again, not Mickey Mouse, high 600 fargo rated players even a couple of 700s. They try a rack or two, then say F. this, I'm going home. "It's boring" is what they invariably say. That's 99%, who say that exact phrase. That's playing 9 ball, their game of choice. The remaining 1% either plays a style that suits the table, or are utterly fascinated that they cannot pot a ball. That rarely lasts. You see, if you are a half decent pool player, you CAN pocket balls on that table, but you can never get a rhytm going because most humans are going to miss at least once a rack in 9 ball, unless they're all hangers. Running a rack that would be routine on a pool table can be almost impossibly difficult. One bad angle on a rail ball, and it's over.

Ok, so that's too extreme for you. Lets try a Diamond or some off brand table more likely, with 4 inch pockets, then. Keep in mind that on tv tournaments, the rubber is warmed by lights, and the cloth is close to brand new. The table has most likely been set up by the best in the industry. What happens when the regular installer puts on the cloth and it's allowed to stay on for 6 months or a year or more? Well, the pockets may not play perfect, maybe the angles are off a little, the facings can get worn out and the cloth sticky. Add some humidity to that and every A player will look like an APA 5. Fantastic, they'll all love that. Nothing like looking stupid in front of a bunch of guys, your date or whatever, to put a spring in a mans step. The APA 5's on the other hand won't pot a ball an hour. THEY are going to absolutely LLOOOOOVE that. I bet they'll overwhelm the pool halls with their presence.
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You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Chinese 8 ball, Russian pyramid, Brazilian pool, Snooker…all less than 4 inches.

American pool has basketball-hoop pockets. It’s not going to change in the foreseeable future. Pool in the USA will remain what it has always been…a fun game for millions to play at a bar or a home table.

I play hockey and we don’t play NHL rules and most who play football (soccer) around the world don’t play FIFA field dimensions.

Pro pool will continue to shift more to Asia and Europe. 99.9% of pool players in the USA don’t give a hoot and will just enjoy the game. Pro pool doesn’t drive the sport.
 
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