Mike Page, FargoRate, Greg Hogue, and the Mosconi Cup

[mikepage]

We’ve seen a lot of posts here over the years about people sending their stuff to Fargo and getting no response. Obviously there is some kind of submission mechanism as new tournaments get added all the time, but it’s not clear what that mechanism is.

Nobody "submits" anything. People merely alert us to their public tournaments. If you direct regular tournaments at an establishment and want the results incorporated into FargoRate, please email support@fargorate.com and describe yourself and your tournaments including what software you use and how the bracket is shared publicly. This is kind of a stop-gap situation because there is no public tournament software integrated with FargoRate yet. We have nevertheless been processing tournaments run with a number of bracket systems, including Cuescore, Leaguepoolstats, Challonge, Digitalpool, Compusport, Billiard-port, Swiss-pool, Bilil-walker.jp, Ingenpool, ... Getting results from any of these into the system is cumbersome, and we--FargoRate--have been assuming the expense. We will, in time, have tournament software integrated with FargoRate. But we are not there yet.

We do, however, have versatile league software imbedded with the system, and several million games per year are coming in through that.

 

[skip100]

Nobody "submits" anything. People merely alert us to their public tournaments. If you direct regular tournaments at an establishment and want the results incorporated into FargoRate, please email support@fargorate.com and describe yourself and your tournaments including what software you use and how the bracket is shared publicly. This is kind of a stop-gap situation because there is no public tournament software integrated with FargoRate yet. We have nevertheless been processing tournaments run with a number of bracket systems, including Cuescore, Leaguepoolstats, Challonge, Digitalpool, Compusport, Billiard-port, Swiss-pool, Bilil-walker.jp, Ingenpool, ... Getting results from any of these into the system is cumbersome, and we--FargoRate--have been assuming the expense. We will, in time, have tournament software integrated with FargoRate. But we are not there yet.

We do, however, have versatile league software imbedded with the system, and several million games per year are coming in through that.

Thanks for the explanation. I think it's reasonable to use the term "submit to Fargo" as a synonym for "emailing Fargo a link to a bracket" or "sending in spreadsheets of tournament results" but OK.

If anything I am surprised you all are still manually entering in as much as you do. It's a lot of tedious grunt work.

 

[mikepage]

Thanks for the explanation. I think it's reasonable to use the term "submit to Fargo" as a synonym for "emailing Fargo a link to a bracket" or "sending in spreadsheets of tournament results" but OK.

There are a few reasons we're a little picky about the language. Some people have imagined that TDs are sending us a spreadsheet where, for instance, the sender can alter scores from what was on the public bracket. Others imagine TDs can send in the Friday night tournament when a certain player does well or does poorly and avoid sending it otherwise. I like to make it clear we're taking all or none and what we're importing is what the public sees on the bracket.

 

[gerryf]

Thanks for the explanation. I think it's reasonable to use the term "submit to Fargo" as a synonym for "emailing Fargo a link to a bracket" or "sending in spreadsheets of tournament results" but OK.

If anything I am surprised you all are still manually entering in as much as you do. It's a lot of tedious grunt work.

It must be a complex undertaking when you consider keeping straight the players. In some major tournaments it might be easy, but others would lead to problems distinguishing between Jayson Shaw, Jay Shaw, Jason Shaw, J. Shaw.

If tournaments and leagues want to have their data entered into FargoRate, I asuume they are using software or spreadsheets that identifies the players with their Fargo number, but once it's retrieved by FargoRate, it has to be QC'd to ensure the FR number matches the name. If it's wrong, it has to be flagged and checked manually.

That's only the beginning of the QC issues. FargoRate has to make many assumptions about the competence (and ethics) of the league manager or tournament director who's filling out the forms.

A grim exercise if you're entering hundreds of thousands of games into the database.

 

[ideologist]

Hogue just got waxed by Joey Tate, what does that do to his Fargo?

 

[skogstokig]

Hogue just got waxed by Joey Tate, what does that do to his Fargo?

shouldn't change much since they're about the same FR

 

[mikepage]

Hogue just got waxed by Joey Tate, what does that do to his Fargo?

Pretty much nothing. They are the same rating and had a pretty close match

 

[rharm]

Fargorate is a "for-profit" business.
Mike Page does what he needs to do to make a solid living off it, whether you like it or not.
Salotto is also "for-profit". And can be used by cheaters to keep their ratings "down".
Mike is VERY proud (arrogant) of his formula and data analysis, even though the fargorate standard deviation is actually almost comical.
My advice to skeptics is to avoid playing in ANY fargorate handicapped events. It's NOT ACCURATE AT THE AMATEUR LEVEL.
A couple of our local 640's, for example, entered a "650 and under" $500 entry fee tourney and got their asses handed to them lol. There definitely were some short-stops in that tourney lol.
And don't even get me started about the 550 and 580 capped tourneys. I guarantee the top players in those play wayyyy better than their rating lol.

As I've said a million times, FARGORATE IS NOT THE HOLY GRAIL POOL RATING SYSTEM AT THE AMATEUR LEVEL.
And the people who know this are definitely taking advantage of this fargorate ignorance.

Wouldn't the players in the 550 and 580 capped tourneys playing wayyy better than their rating win the tournament and have their results raise their Fargo?

 

[easy-e]

Wouldn't the players in the 550 and 580 capped tourneys playing wayyy better than their rating win the tournament and have their results raise their Fargo?

It would. Some people have been known to play poorly (on purpose) in the $5 tournaments and then play good in the $500 tournaments. Fargo has exposed them before. I still think it's BS to say a rating system sucks because a player has a great tournament.

 

[Sheldon]

Smacks of sour grapes! I used to get accused of cheating a lot playing Quake III, never even dreamed of cheating. There are always people who want an excuse when they run into people who are better, or playing lights out.

 

[easy-e]

Smacks of sour grapes! I used to get accused of cheating a lot playing Quake III, never even dreamed of cheating. There are always people who want an excuse when they run into people who are better, or playing lights out.

For real. It drives me crazy. Someone is always going to play their best game and win the tournament, it happens.

 

[Poolplaya9]

.....I believe [my suggestions on what Mike should do with FargoRate have] the potential to single-handedly revive pool on America. Kids need to play to improve. Child chess players get crazy motivated for every little point gain. The same would be true for youth pool players who had a super easy way to get rated and measure their improvement, without having to go to nationals. Young pool players need to play under the Fargorate system to understand what an effort a 50 point improvement takes.

And once again (whether through poor wording or not) all your arguments seem to be centered around how Mike should be helping everybody else as if he is a charity, rather than being centered around what would be best for his business which is the perspective that we (and of course he) should be using considering that he is not a charity.

 

[Poolplaya9]

There are too many incorrect premises intertwined with misconceptions about what we're already doing. I fear a losing game of whack-a-mole.

How about starting with addressing why you refused to take all this German league or tournament data that ShortBusRuss is referring to given that you take that same type of data from others under similar circumstances if ShortBusRuss' story and the contention from others is correct?

Does he just have some of his facts wrong and it should be obvious to him why you wouldn't take their data and he is just playing dumb? If so, please explain why you didn't want it so others will know what mistake not to make or what league/tournament data you have no interest in as this is basic pertinent information that people need to know. Was is just more data than you wanted to commit to taking on right now administratively due to the sheer amount of it, but where you could still commit to receiving smaller data samples from others? Do you just have something against Germans (said tongue in cheek of course, but your refusal to accept the data for seemingly no good reason per the only story out there, coupled with your refusal to even acknowledge it and give any reasoning, is inevitably going to make some people out there ponder just such things)?

I think this is a case where the answer, whatever it is, will be better than refusing to address it because, while I'm sure it is not the case, that refusal gives the appearances of being non responsive and just not caring about people's user experience and the product, and it also lets confusion over what data you do and don't want, and what data is acceptable and unacceptable, which is basic pertinent information people should have, continue to percolate which further creates the appearance among some of not caring about your product and especially your customer base.

 

[JAM]

I don't have time to read the entire thread, but I am a little miffed at some of the posts I did read.

Mike Page has always been a strong supporter of pool. I remember when he traveled to Maryland in my neck of the woods and was checking out pool rooms for future reference. He is one of the good guys in pool. Not sure why folks are upset about Fargo Rate. It's a rating system that was needed. Better than BCA's old rating system, which is now defunct, and the WPA rating system is kind of not up to date.

Matchroom looks to be creating a series of events and will have a rating system, I guess, based on income?

I'm out of the loop on ratings systems, I guess. That said, Mike Page is one of the good guys in pool. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

 

[JB Cases]

Greg Hogue is a perfect example of the problems with FargoRate when it comes to changes in skill level. I didn't listen to the podcast, but it sounds like he may have played thousands of games under the influence of meth. Now he's off meth and playing better. It will take years for his rating to reflect anything like his true skill level.

Hogue finished 17th at the US Open alongside 800-rated players like Wu Kun Lin, Oi, Feijen, Ko Pin Yi, and so on. Who are you going to believe, his 699 rating or your lying eyes?

Now is this an extreme case? Sure. But it's emblematic of the (reasonable) choice made to prioritize stability over responsiveness. There are pros and cons to every model and it's not nitpicky to suss them out.

As someone who has played a lot of players that were on meth......they tend to play better. Greg has been sober for three years and so the last three years should have been more than enough to establish a correct rating.

That said, if he is putting in 40+ hours a week practicing he should be running ahead of his rating. How far ahead is dependent on how quickly the ratings are updated.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

As someone who has played a lot of players that were on meth......they tend to play better. Greg has been sober for three years and so the last three years should have been more than enough to establish a correct rating.

That said, if he is putting in 40+ hours a week practicing he should be running ahead of his rating. How far ahead is dependent on how quickly the ratings are updated.

This is probably not gonna be a popular view, and I did not want to go there, but since the meth thing was brought up again..... I wanted to state the point that this is a TV event.... And Greg still has some dental stuff to take care of from those days..... So there is the consideration of the image of the game for Matchroom. Do they want to put a player on TV with some serious dental work required? I was of the same view on Shane McMinn when he was trying to get on the Mosconi Cup in 2018. He came to play the Leende, NL Eurotour tournament, and with the extra weight he was carrying, he did not look healthy at all.

Any player looking to get on the Mosconi Cup teams needs to take appearance into account. And before I get blasted, I did not make the "rules". I am just trying to draw attention to the idea that this is probably a factor in picking wildcard slots.

 

[mikepage]

How about starting with addressing why you refused to take all this German league or tournament data that ShortBusRuss is referring to given that you take that same type of data from others under similar circumstances if ShortBusRuss' story and the contention from others is correct?

Does he just have some of his facts wrong and it should be obvious to him why you wouldn't take their data and he is just playing dumb? If so, please explain why you didn't want it so others will know what mistake not to make or what league/tournament data you have no interest in as this is basic pertinent information that people need to know. Was is just more data than you wanted to commit to taking on right now administratively due to the sheer amount of it, but where you could still commit to receiving smaller data samples from others? Do you just have something against Germans (said tongue in cheek of course, but your refusal to accept the data for seemingly no good reason per the only story out there, coupled with your refusal to even acknowledge it and give any reasoning, is inevitably going to make some people out there ponder just such things)?

I think this is a case where the answer, whatever it is, will be better than refusing to address it because, while I'm sure it is not the case, that refusal gives the appearances of being non responsive and just not caring about people's user experience and the product, and it also lets confusion over what data you do and don't want, and what data is acceptable and unacceptable, which is basic pertinent information people should have, continue to percolate which further creates the appearance among some of not caring about your product and especially your customer base.

We distinguish two types of competition,
LEAGUE --generally lasts weeks or months with local individuals or teams playing schedules matches or games
TOURNAMENT --generally a public contest lasting a day or a few days typically where players are eliminated to an eventual winner

Russ knows and has been disappointed for years that league data comes in only through LMS, our league management system that is fully integrated with everything FargoRate. That's true for everyone; the German league is not singled out.

On the few occasions we've made an exception, it has been either a big system converting to LMS (and getting in a big dump of data from their old system) or a situation where there is a notable opportunity to get a region established. Along these lines, I indicated to Russ a few years ago it might be possible to import multiple (past) full years of German league games IF the people running the league want it AND we are working with them. Russ then acquired a year's worth of data and sent it to us. But there is no indication he involved the people who run the league.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

How about starting with addressing why you refused to take all this German league or tournament data that ShortBusRuss is referring to given that you take that same type of data from others under similar circumstances if ShortBusRuss' story and the contention from others is correct?

Does he just have some of his facts wrong and it should be obvious to him why you wouldn't take their data and he is just playing dumb? If so, please explain why you didn't want it so others will know what mistake not to make or what league/tournament data you have no interest in as this is basic pertinent information that people need to know. Was is just more data than you wanted to commit to taking on right now administratively due to the sheer amount of it, but where you could still commit to receiving smaller data samples from others? Do you just have something against Germans (said tongue in cheek of course, but your refusal to accept the data for seemingly no good reason per the only story out there, coupled with your refusal to even acknowledge it and give any reasoning, is inevitably going to make some people out there ponder just such things)?

I think this is a case where the answer, whatever it is, will be better than refusing to address it because, while I'm sure it is not the case, that refusal gives the appearances of being non responsive and just not caring about people's user experience and the product, and it also lets confusion over what data you do and don't want, and what data is acceptable and unacceptable, which is basic pertinent information people should have, continue to percolate which further creates the appearance among some of not caring about your product and especially your customer base.

This.... I just want SOME method of getting German club players into Fargorate. Either I can hold a tournament and get their scores submitted that way.. Or, I figured that a German league website would be legit enough to ingest that they don't require too much vetting of the scores.

I emailed back and forth a time or two with Fargorate ~ 2 years ago or so, asked if I could get German league data for Hessen players imported into Fargorate. Got the format that made them most easily exportable to Fargorate, according to the person I was emailing back and forth with.

Then I took the time to write a python script that crawled the website being used track league match results and grabbed player names, and match scores.. Took into allowance foreign characters in specific player's names, and then spit out an entire season's worth of data in a few seconds of running time... Sent the spreadsheet to the Fargorate email address.. And got no word back. Emailed them a time or two checking to see if the format was right, what else they needed.... Nothing.

I am just trying to seed Fargorate in the Hessen region, and once these 500-600 level players see their initial Fargorate, and if I can provide them more local Fargo-rated tournaments, then maybe this kicks off motivation in the area to play and compete more.

The main thing that frustrates me is the lack of clear communication on this. Either tell me it can, or cannot be done. If it can, tell me the procedure you want me to follow. Germans specifically, and European pool players generally, are supremely interested in tracking and improvement. I am offering Fargorate basically free data that will seed Fargorates amongst an entire country where a LOT of people play pool competitively at a level higher than your general BCA league. Heck, I don't even NEED it to be free. I will gladly pay a moderate fee per season or whatever.

I even sent Fargorate my python script, that they could plug into their ingestion scripts, so there is basically zero work for Fargorate employees to do past the initial integration. I offered to modify it in whatever way they required to automate the process. No response.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

We distinguish two types of competition,
LEAGUE --generally lasts weeks or months with local individuals or teams playing schedules matches or games
TOURNAMENT --generally a public contest lasting a day or a few days typically where players are eliminated to an eventual winner

Russ knows and has been disappointed for years that league data comes in only through LMS, our league management system that is fully integrated with everything FargoRate. That's true for everyone; the German league is not singled out.

On the few occasions we've made an exception, it has been either a big system converting to LMS (and getting in a big dump of data from their old system) or a situation where there is a notable opportunity to get a region established. Along these lines, I indicated to Russ a few years ago it might be possible to import multiple (past) full years of German league games IF the people running the league want it AND we are working with them. Russ then acquired a year's worth of data and sent it to us. But there is no indication he involved the people who run the league.

Mike, I don't remember a specific mention about the league organizers needing to be involved, but if that it still on the table, I can reach out to them. The old data from the the previous league software is still there, and I still have my script... I never really got any word back that I can remember once I sent the year's worth of data, so it kinda felt like I got blown off a little.

The new site the German league is using is different, so I would have to re-write the script to get this year's data. I do remember you saying that you would need a complete season's worth of data. My script still works against the prior season's data.

Any idea what the timeline is for more of a tournament-ready ingestion scheme? You mentioned it in another post, and I would be super interested.

Beyond that... Have you considered changing the fees for countries that have their own league-tracking system? Zero chance of Germany ever converting over to any sort of LMS system. I know you deserve compensation for your work, but market differences can be taken into account to earn money in countries that don't do pool (thankfully!) like America does.

 

[jtompilot]

There are a few reasons we're a little picky about the language. Some people have imagined that TDs are sending us a spreadsheet where, for instance, the sender can alter scores from what was on the public bracket. Others imagine TDs can send in the Friday night tournament when a certain player does well or does poorly and avoid sending it otherwise. I like to make it clear we're taking all or none and what we're importing is what the public sees on the bracket.

I played a 9 ball tournament at Bangin Ballz in Vegas and a 10 ball tournament in Spokane. They didn’t show up in my FargoRate. I assume the brackets were not public?