This is why Fargorate Fails...

Woodshaft said:
I'm sure it is... That's because your calculations don't take into consideration how he performed against the top fargo guys-- it just looks at wins/losses. I saw his performance against the 640 guys lol.
And please explain how he is such an incredible outlier in a group of 78 guys, Mr. Statistics.
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It's not just wins/losses, it's wins/losses against the skill levels that get the rating. Winning 9-3 against a 400 gives you a different rating than winning 9-3 against a 500. Now winning 9-1 against a 400 and winning 9-3 against a 500 would be closer to the same results for the calculations, but you need to do the scores over a few 100 games to get a good average of performance. It also gives more weight to more recent games to keep player improvements in mind so 5 years of a C player that went up to a B level won't keep them too low for their current skill.

Have you looked at posts on here and Facebook about how the thing works? Or how close the results are in predicting the matches over time? I don't mean this one guy that one time won 7-3 when he should have lost 7-3, I mean long term trends over the population of pool players?

Once I saw a B player almost beat Mika Immonen, he was ahead like 5-3 in a race to 7 but ended up losing anyway in a close match. If I asked how good a player would be to play Mika to a 7-5 result, I would bet no-one would have said "B" level, A maybe, or even Open, but that would have given that guy like another 100 points in Fargo he did not deserve based on day to day results.

How about the many players that did well bellow what they were ranked, are those players reverse sandbaggers?
This is 9 players that played 84 - 186 points bellow their rating. If the rating is off one way, these guys must be dropped also no? Are they all 1-2 levels bellow their ratings? Mohammad is a 600 which is right at A, A- level, but played like a 414 which is a C, 2.5 ratings levels lower.
Ray and Tonnee are solid A players, and are under 500 which is B-, over a level under their rating.

Jamison Daniels625540.31-84.69
Rogeur Habachiy630539.35-90.65
Tristan Hood628535.67-92.33
Matt Sherman636518.63-117.37
Dave O'Keeffe625514.79-110.21
Mike Kushlan628498.39-129.61
Tonee Tuley637497.13-139.87
Ray Robles637439.5-197.5
Mohammad Hereimi600414-186
 
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Woodshaft said:
He was a cat playing with it's food.
He is so underrated it's not even funny.
Many of my fellow 600-700 friends all saw the same thing.
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Sounds like you guys might need to put some more work in on the practice table to beat a guy like that. Name a pool player who doesn't play with their food from time to time. We only got so much concentration, the game's much easier with BIH.

I've only been in two Fargo rated tournaments, my FR dropped 30 points without playing any FR matches for a couple years. I promise I've not been playing and practicing my nuts off in the meantime. Scout's honor! ;)🤥

I mean, there isn't really any FR tournaments around me, so why not get better so I can jump that rating up next time? Only a fool wouldn't fly under the radar. It's not about trying to sandbag for me either. I just saw how utter crap my FR was so I figured I'd get practiced up before I make a fool of myself again. I don't even want to get any more weight in the system until I can make it jump 100 points legitimately. When it's time for my FR to raise, I want to be able to actually raise it and do so quickly.

I want a meteoric rise, not grinding for additional years to drop off shit low scores.
 
Woodshaft said:
I'm sure it is... That's because your calculations don't take into consideration how he performed against the top fargo guys-- it just looks at wins/losses. I saw his performance against the 640 guys lol.
And please explain how he is such an incredible outlier in a group of 78 guys, Mr. Statistics.
His Effective rate is so high because he beat his tuff highest rated players, a 642 and a 640, by a combined score of 18 to 3. That's when "he was shooting like SVB" btw, for all you doubters. Kyle "let up" a bit in his other matches knowing he was FAR superior to them.
But his closet match was still a dominant 9 to 5. He's a hustler.
He was a cat playing with it's food.
He is so underrated it's not even funny.
Many of my fellow 600-700 friends all saw the same thing.
Their, and my, biggest gripe with fargorate is the inability to see how he/players got his/their data, and how old it is.
The app gives no ability to see his match history, or most history for most players.
Kyle is around a 700 speed now, he ain't no 628.
I play at about Kyle's skill level- a tad under 700-- and I know a fraud when I see him.
This is a hard lesson to all the players who play in ridiculously high entry fee fargorated tourneys.
Watch out for the "ringer":cool:

And, no, I didn't lose any money on this or any fargorate tourney, as some have wondered. But three honest friends of mine played in it and never will again.
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How many times during your posts are you going to claim to be a shortstop or 700 rated Fargo player? Man you like to toot your own horn. Too bad your buddies didn't win the Mako maybe you guys aren't as good as you think you are! Keep practicing in your mom's basement Woody
 
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How is a player who was eligible to play to blame? He had a rating that allowed him to play and he played and won. Anyone who wins a tournament probably plays a little above their normal speed. I know I’ve never won a tournament when I played bad.
 
What's considered A to Open skilled level players within Fargo?

I directed a straight pool tournament with a 650 handicap and it was won by the guy with the best rating, who also happens to be one of the best top amateurs in the NYC scene.

So if the guy who won this has a rating of 628, then he's just a top level amateur in general and should reason into winning.

As far as the other stuff, pool is funny. Sometimes you can be the best player in the world and have a crap match. Other times some players who you would never expect to play as good as their.number suggest do.
 
9BallKY said:
How is a player who was eligible to play to blame? He had a rating that allowed him to play and he played and won. Anyone who wins a tournament probably plays a little above their normal speed. I know I’ve never won a tournament when I played bad.
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This is my point about fargorate. The data is obsolete, the player knew it and used it to his advantage win big in a handicapped tourney. This isn't about the player, it's a major flaw of fargorate.
That's what I'm trying to bring to everyone's attention.
I don't wanna know how you played 3 years ago, I wanna know how you play recently/now.
Fargorate's continuing dependence on old data is it's big flaw.
It gives us a "rating", but MANY times that rating is stale/lagging.
Players usually don't get much worse, but they can IMPROVE dramatically in the span of just months.
And until Mike understands this-- and implements a fix-- his fargorates are just MINIMUM skill level representations, and not really relevant.

So, as Mr. Page admitted, Kyle Hargis is AT LEAST a fargorate 628. Pretty vague, wouldn't you agree?
 
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Woodshaft said:
This is my point about fargorate. The data is obsolete, the player knew it and used it to his advantage win big in a handicapped tourney. This isn't about the player, it's a major flaw of fargorate.
That's what I'm trying to bring to everyone's attention.
I don't wanna know how you played 3 years ago, I wanna know how you play recently/now.
Fargorate's continuing dependence on old data is it's big flaw.
It gives us a "rating", but MANY times that rating is stale/lagging.
Players usually don't get much worse, but they can IMPROVE dramatically in the span of just months.
And until Mike understands this-- and implements a fix-- his fargorates are just MINIMUM skill level representations, and not really relevant.

So, as Mr. Page admitted, Kyle Hargis is AT LEAST a fargorate 628. Pretty vague, wouldn't you agree?
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If the player played in recent events with Fargo then that would be entered. There is not a camera in every pool room tracking players to see how they play. Plus the data is not obsolete, the older matches have a lot less relevance to the rating so as long as there is newer matches that are seen they will count for way more towards the score. There was a slide put out that showed exactly how much the data is weighted by age.

Let's say my last tournament was 3 years ago, I practiced at home or in a pool hall in local events that were not tracked by anything, then enter another event that is handicapped with Fargo. Can you list a single rating system, that will be able to rate a player without any data for 3 years? How do you figure that is a flaw? I will guarantee you that the people that setup Fargo ratings understand perfectly well how pool players play and get better or worse, it's not some secret universe you are bringing up that only you are aware of, there have been posts for years and years about this.

If you want to know how the player plays now, enter the data from their recent events into the system to be tracked. And even then, it will take scores of games for the average results to become a real rating.
 
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nicksaint26 said:
Woodshaft is mad that his buddies and him are not as good as they think they are. Instead of congratulating a guy on a nice score he is doing what baby's do and trying to blame it on Fargo.
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I'm not mad at all lol. My friends did about as expected, and they have money to burn so no biggie.
I'm just pointing out that the tourney had a definite "ringer", even though the rules were followed.
MOB Productions has remained suspiciously quiet about it all btw.
They haven't thanked the players or sponsors, or made any announcement about the results.

It tells me one of two things:
1) They're embarrassed about Kyle's obvious dominance, or
2) They knew about Kyle's dominance.

Either way, Mr. Kyle Hargis "stole" a huge chunk of change in this tourney.
He should be buying all the honest players pizza, at the very least.

Fargorate is the only "for-profit" pool rating system out there.
Keep paying Mike Page boys and girls---- he'll keep giving you numbers to believe in.🤣
 
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He probably posted on here a few months ago about being underrated in Fargo Rate and everybody told him "Everybody thinks they're underrated, get over yourself!"

And then went on to tell him:"If you're that good why don't you play some of the big $1000 entry tournaments." So he did.

Now you're pissing and moaning because he was underrated. Guy can't win. :)
 
Woodshaft said:
This is my point about fargorate. The data is obsolete, the player knew it and used it to his advantage win big in a handicapped tourney. This isn't about the player, it's a major flaw of fargorate.
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How many years has the winner been playing? I've been playing since the 90's, and except for the first couple years of a player's pool "bug", and when players get to old age, have NEVER seen a player change speed The guys 20 years ago play exactly the same, the pecking order is the same, nothing changes. Unless your guy had a hand and eye transplant, he's probably playing the same today as he was 3 years ago.
 
easy-e said:
It's easier to just get out
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Woodshaft said:
Fargorate is the only "for-profit" pool rating system out there.
Keep paying Mike Page boys and girls---- he'll keep giving you numbers to believe in.🤣
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I played BCA in the past so the Fargo ap is free.
When you come up with something better than Fargo, let us know.
Fargo puts more weight behind recent matches than older ones. It's a decent system for the most part. The days of everyone playing even and players playing their dues is over. It sucks but it's where we are.
 
Woodshaft said:
It gives us a "rating", but MANY times that rating is stale/lagging.
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Just be thankful you don't have to carry a little black book with odds and rumors of road players who exist only in hushed whispers. Hell, at least you have their real names now, not just some guy in painter's clothes showing up who just happened to be on his lunch break.

Seriously, the best player will win. The mistake is to have a capped FR tournament and thinking you have a chance because of that. The winner wins.

If anyone puts blind faith in ANY rating system or word of mouth about a player, they've not played pool long enough. Immerse yourself in the game and get some seasoning. Read some books about the old road players. Just who is this Cesar Morales guy anyway?

Your rating catches up with you, complaining that you caught someone before the math caught up is naive.

Some people also thrive in tournaments. A guy I beat 50% of the time (or more) on league nights recently won the standard division of a state tournament 8 ball. How's that happen? The most I've ever done in those bastard tournaments is winning 3 matches between getting double eliminated, but I'd have no qualms about beating him.
 
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