This is why Fargorate Fails...

[CJBCoug]

S

I'm sure it is... That's because your calculations don't take into consideration how he performed against the top fargo guys-- it just looks at wins/losses. I saw his performance against the 640 guys lol.
And please explain how he is such an incredible outlier in a group of 78 guys, Mr. Statistics.
His Effective rate is so high because he beat his tuff highest rated players, a 642 and a 640, by a combined score of 18 to 3. That's when "he was shooting like SVB" btw, for all you doubters. Kyle "let up" a bit in his other matches knowing he was FAR superior to them.
But his closet match was still a dominant 9 to 5. He's a hustler.
He was a cat playing with it's food.
He is so underrated it's not even funny.
Many of my fellow 600-700 friends all saw the same thing.
Their, and my, biggest gripe with fargorate is the inability to see how he/players got his/their data, and how old it is.
The app gives no ability to see his match history, or most history for most players.
Kyle is around a 700 speed now, he ain't no 628.
I play at about Kyle's skill level- a tad under 700-- and I know a fraud when I see him.
This is a hard lesson to all the players who play in ridiculously high entry fee fargorated tourneys.
Watch out for the "ringer"

And, no, I didn't lose any money on this or any fargorate tourney, as some have wondered. But three honest friends of mine played in it and never will again.

Seems like just sour grapes for losing out in the tournament. Any of those capped tournaments can go in any direction. That is why so many people are willing to sign up and play. You have to play over your head or be really underrated to win the tournament. It was probably a combination of the two in this situation but he is only one player in the tournament. There was still opportunity to get in the money. Hoping they have another 700 and below so I can throw my hat in the ring.

Is the other $1,000 entry tournament he played in a few weeks ago too old?

https://challonge.com/9j8jck1w?fbclid=IwAR2HPOhIkN2jUofh8NuJkpjJmGlZQLWtJec0ke3sSwFax13FvCc-JZmgGXw

Pure gold! I just watched the finals, he isn't a world beater, but plays pretty good. He definitely lacks some fundamentals and doesn't have the greatest bridges. His opponent missed a lot and gave him all kinds of opportunities. After watching his finals, I would put him in the 640/650 range max. He comes out of his shots and guides the ball a lot. Surprised no one called him out for pattern racking, had the same rack every time. He had a good tournament, hats off to him.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Does Fargorate line up with Pat Flemings TPA reports?

Fargorate shows trends over time. TPA shows trends in performance for the day.

The argument simplifies to what is the estimated TPA based on a given Fargo player?

This quantitative distinction would define who is having a bad day versus who is being outplayed.

It's not an exact translation but someone here said Fargo is about 100 points lower than TPA. A bit more at the high end and a bit less at the low end. So someone shooting a .900 TPA would probable be around 775 Fargo. It's still an estimate, though. You and I may have similar Fargorates but our TPA will be much higher if we are shooting on a bar box with loose pockets than if we shoot on a 9' with 4" pockets, yet we may play even on both of them. Still, If you are playing the ghost and have a TPA of .700, a 600 cap tournament would probably be a good level.

 

[justnum]

It's not an exact translation but someone here said Fargo is about 100 points lower than TPA. A bit more at the high end and a bit less at the low end. So someone shooting a .900 TPA would probable be around 775 Fargo. It's still an estimate, though. You and I may have similar Fargorates but our TPA will be much higher if we are shooting on a bar box with loose pockets than if we shoot on a 9' with 4" pockets, yet we may play even on both of them. Still, If you are playing the ghost and have a TPA of .700, a 600 cap tournament would probably be a good level.

I propose Howerton productions or Pat Fleming create an app for players to establish their own TPA. The App would help promote the new ownership by AZB. Then it can automatically sign people up for AZB and people can share TPA anomalies.

As for your comparison it can be the beginning of a new AZB user community.

free version of app gives player their tpa.
Pay version of app gives players access to storing tpa records.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I know a guy right around that fargo rate and I've seen him run 7 racks in a row with my own eyes. It can happen and he NEVER dogs a game, just goes in to win every time.

I have run a 5 pack in 9 ball on a 9 footer and my highest Fargorate is 583. I had plenty of matches in barbox 8 ball where I ran minimum 4 racks out of 5, alternate break, and a few where I ran all 5. Never bothered to count packs in 9 ball on the barbox, because that is much more ependent on a controlled break, rather than good play. But I know for sure I have had quite a few times where I ran a three, then a four separated by a game or two. If we are talking about a barbox, a seven pack is GOOD, but not anything super special.

I may be just slightly underrated, because I have put some real pressure on Joey Gray (9 ball, ran a four pack on him), John Morra (lost 3-2 in One Pocket the year he won the Banks), and Scott Frost (Led 5-0, 6-0 back to back games in One Pocket) at Derby, but I still lost all three matches. My entire Fargorate was gleaned from league play and regional BCA events in Colorado / Wyoming, because due to my job and my currently living in Germany, I just don't get the opportunity to play Fargo rated events any more. I really don't play ANY tournaments outside of DCC...

Any problems with Fargorate have nothing to do with the math, and everything to do with the people in pool. Any rating system can be gamed if one is motivated enough. Doesn't make the rating system any less valuable.

 

[Nick8400]

Could be he just got his meds exactly right for this tournament

I love when that happens.

 

[Jaden]

Agree.

There's two caveats:
1. Sandbagging FargoRate would only ever make financial sense if there was a HUGE payoff down the road. Rarely would that be the case but maybe this situation would apply.
2. Inputting inflated/deflated data could do the trick. I'm starting to see this with my very limited play. Where accurate results are not being reported to the tourney director. Instead, some guys always mysteriously win hill-hill or when they lose -- they get skunked.

You don't have to sandbag. All you have to do is only play lesser players than your ability in handicapped tourneys. No one will ever get above 700 speed only playing handicapped lower level tourneys. No sand bagging required.

 

[mikepage]

You don't have to sandbag. All you have to do is only play lesser players than your ability in handicapped tourneys. No one will ever get above 700 speed only playing handicapped lower level tourneys. No sand bagging required.

This is a misconception.

 

[Cuedup]

The math isn't that basic.

 

[jacob]

The $1,000 Mako Fargo capped 641 and under 10-Ball Tournament had 78 players square off in Vegas this past weekend.
The winner, Kyle Hargis, with an alleged fargo of 628 (908 games in system) totally dominated the field winning all 7 matches by a combined score of 67 to 23, 74%, and played the tourney at an effective fargorate of an astounding 776.
The 2nd highest effective fargorate was 688, btw.
Kyle played 7 matches and the closet was one 9 to 5 for the hotseat. He won the final 13 to 5 btw. As a fargo 628........
I watched the guy on livestream and almost immediately picked him as a fraud due to his unbelievable overall playing abilty.
I further researched and found him on facebook and found that he he recently ran a 7-pack. AS A FARGO 628!?!?
I also found that he was trying to set up 5-digit big money fargorate doubles money matches with a 700-ish fargorate friend of his.
The guy is a fraud and a shortstop and the fact that Mako let him win this HUGE money tourney (I don't have the exact amount, but 1st paid $26k MORE than 2nd place) makes me feel he was a hired gun, a plant.
I truly feel sorry for the 77 honest players in the tourney. The tournament director should have noticed this anamoly.

Maybe our buddy Mike Page can explain how this semi-pro talented is running a legit fargorate 628?

You can find video of this guy (playing like SVB) on youtube, search 2022 Mako 10-ball Tournament.

Mike Page, explain this please. (And not with a "he had a good tourney" BS, thanks).

Here's Digital Pool's Link:

DigitalPool - Bridging the gap between player and technology

Create and manage your own pool leagues and tournaments and challenge other players from around the pool world.

digitalpool.com

I live in the same general area as Kyle. I have played him on occasion. I would have guessed that he was around a 600 Fargo before I read this thread and looked him up.

Kyle doesn't deserve to have a hate thread about him, it should be taken down.
To say that he is stealing as a 628 fargo is laughable.

 

[nicksaint26]

Woodshaft thinks he plays 670 speed when in reality he is probably like a 570. Watching Kyle play better than he does is why he thinks he was sandbagging. In his head he is like how is this kid a 630 and better than me? Because you suck Woodshaft that's why! Stop patting yourself on the back and practice once in a while if your arms not too sore.

 

[boogieman]

I live in the same general area as Kyle. I have played him on occasion. I would have guessed that he was around a 600 Fargo before I read this thread and looked him up.

Kyle doesn't deserve to have a hate thread about him, it should be taken down.
To say that he is stealing as a 628 fargo is laughable.

Oh I would laugh my ass off if I read a thread like this about me. I bet Kyle would get a huge kick out of it. Those big fish in a small pond get irate if you show everyone they are just guppies!

 

[BasementDweller]

I live in the same general area as Kyle. I have played him on occasion. I would have guessed that he was around a 600 Fargo before I read this thread and looked him up.

Kyle doesn't deserve to have a hate thread about him, it should be taken down.
To say that he is stealing as a 628 fargo is laughable.

True. I deleted my post regarding his play.

 

[bmsclayton]

We have countless hours of him playing on film, even against Justin Bergman with big spots, he is hardly unknown. He is great action and has skills in different areas like a lot of very good players. He will look for the best of it but also takes the worst often to get action. Fargo Rate is an amazing tool to be used in conjunction with several other tools to ascertain a players skill level. We are much better off with it than without. However that should not ever be the end all be all for a tournament director. Our sport has a slightly higher level of deception than most. It has to be supervised better.
Kyle is a 700 fargo on a bar table and a 680 on the big track. He is not faint of heart and won't wet the bed which is worth 19 fargo points in some formats and 40 in others. Nice guy and great action. Not doubting his actual fargo is low, like most action hounds he gets frustrated and quits pool often. Probably accumulated in drinking league.

 

[nicksaint26]

We have countless hours of him playing on film, even against Justin Bergman with big spots, he is hardly unknown. He is great action and has skills in different areas like a lot of very good players. He will look for the best of it but also takes the worst often to get action. Fargo Rate is an amazing tool to be used in conjunction with several other tools to ascertain a players skill level. We are much better off with it than without. However that should not ever be the end all be all for a tournament director. Our sport has a slightly higher level of deception than most. It has to be supervised better.
Kyle is a 700 fargo on a bar table and a 680 on the big track. He is not faint of heart and won't wet the bed which is worth 19 fargo points in some formats and 40 in others. Nice guy and great action. Not doubting his actual fargo is low, like most action hounds he gets frustrated and quits pool often. Probably accumulated in drinking league.

As Mike Page pointed out he just lost a $1000 entry event as well. The tournament director for this Mako randomly draws a number for a cutoff so you never know what that number is going to be. Not saying you still can't sandbag but makes it harder never knowing what the cutoff will be. Could have been 652 or 627 or whatever.

 

[iusedtoberich]

What I find most interesting in this thread is there were 2 separate $1000 entry amateur event that got filled, the first from the OP's post, the second from Mike P's post. All I can say is wow. I remember around 1998 my local room tried to have a $50 entry special event tourney, (normal weekly event was $5 entry), and we got 3 entrants, including me. I also remember the early years of the Fatboy 9' table and then Bigfoot DCC $1000 entry were super tough for Jay to fill up with 16 players.

 

[The_JV]

What I find most interesting in this thread is there were 2 separate $1000 entry amateur event that got filled, the first from the OP's post, the second from Mike P's post. All I can say is wow. I remember around 1998 my local room tried to have a $50 entry special event tourney, (normal weekly event was $5 entry), and we got 3 entrants, including me. I also remember the early years of the Fatboy 9' table and then Bigfoot DCC $1000 entry were super tough for Jay to fill up with 16 players.

I know right...

My local room is filled with players that struggle to pry $20 from their pockets. Most events 1-2hrs from me are capped to exclude >650 (if that high). Occasionally there will be something 'Open' but always has staggered entry so it can fill up with dead money. Final there has been only one series of events that have a $500 entry but those have all suffered from shady TD practices (imo).

 

[The_JV]

We have countless hours of him playing on film, even against Justin Bergman with big spots, he is hardly unknown. He is great action and has skills in different areas like a lot of very good players. He will look for the best of it but also takes the worst often to get action. Fargo Rate is an amazing tool to be used in conjunction with several other tools to ascertain a players skill level. We are much better off with it than without. However that should not ever be the end all be all for a tournament director. Our sport has a slightly higher level of deception than most. It has to be supervised better.
Kyle is a 700 fargo on a bar table and a 680 on the big track. He is not faint of heart and won't wet the bed which is worth 19 fargo points in some formats and 40 in others. Nice guy and great action. Not doubting his actual fargo is low, like most action hounds he gets frustrated and quits pool often. Probably accumulated in drinking league.

I didn't see that in the recent Mako footage on YT. I guess his result speaks more to his opponents. If he is indeed supposed to be 700 spd on the tables I saw him play on, then either fargo uses different math in the States, or his opponents were weak.

I don't mean to knock the man. Just saying that what I saw isn't the 700 spd in my part of the world.

 

[easy-e]

You don't have to sandbag. All you have to do is only play lesser players than your ability in handicapped tourneys. No one will ever get above 700 speed only playing handicapped lower level tourneys. No sand bagging required.

Jon Smith has reached an impressive 735 by playing mostly just BCA leagues right here in Phoenix. Handicapped league format. The guy just refuses to lose every game.

 

[BasementDweller]

How do you judge someone's speed?

I think it largely depends on your own game. Let's say you play in the 500s, then you are quite impressed with players firing balls into the pockets. If they run out like this,, you'll think they're a sandbagging pro. If you either -- play above 600 (or maybe 650) or are just very knowledgeable about the game, you can gauge someone's speed just by their shot selection. You could cover the pockets and I could still get a good feel for how well someone plays. There's a specific way players approaching 700 play the game. This is especially true on a bar table. A 700 level player on a bar table will mostly take the same shots that an 800 level player would. They just don't execute them as well. If you're not seeing that sort of shot selection, your not seeing a 700 level player. Of course I'm talking for the most part. There will be pet shots that lesser players like more than the orthodox shot, or those they struggle with that they avoid.

 

[BasementDweller]

You don't have to sandbag. All you have to do is only play lesser players than your ability in handicapped tourneys. No one will ever get above 700 speed only playing handicapped lower level tourneys. No sand bagging required.

I think you can get there in handicapped tourneys easier than you can in friendly leagues where you are beating up on baby seals. Most of us have been in environments where we were not compelled to play our best. This isn't necessarily sandbagging, it's just having fun. Maybe this is actually being weeded out a bit just by having FargoRate out there. I'm not sure.