We could too - except we'd hit too far out and miscue on way more shots (or too far in and get less draw). He's just more consistently accurate.
pj
chgo
Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
pj
chgo
It’s really hard to tell how low players are hitting because so many people line up and then when they hit either raise or lower their tip. I see a lot of players aim with their tip rubbing the table for a draw shot, but I seriously doubt they are hitting that low.
Yep - that's why spin tests always say to use a marked CB and check chalk marks. (Some people here seem to think controlling a variable like that is "rigging" the test.
)pj
chgo
Lol. 1000 would work.
The testing, or "proof", that Dr Dave has shown is excellent when it comes to moving the cb around the table. He has definitely made it clear that there is no effective difference between tip hardness when it comes to generating cb action off the cushion at equal cb speeds.
Still, I can shoot a soft draw shot with a medium-hard tip and get more draw than I can with a super-soft tip using the same stroke. So it's pretty obvious I get more spin. It doesn't matter that the reason is because I get slightly more speed with the harder tip. I understand the speed/spin ratio thing. What matters is that with the same stroke effort there is a noticeable difference in cb action between hard and soft tips.
kanzzo
hobby player
couldn't prove my theory
Found out that it's very hard to perform "unbiased" tests since I know what I want to demonstrate and my head completely messes up my stroke to show what I would like to show. Hence double blind studies where participants don't know what should be shown are the gold standard in science.
Still could't get a higher hitting point with better draw results. So whatever the image I had in my head to produce draws, the easier explanation is just more draw depending on how far of the center I am hitting the ball
.seems to be the easiest explanation.
Still here are my test results:
Perhaps s.o. else (or myself in the future) can show with the same test setup that it is possible to hit CB higher and slower and still get more action (but I doubt it now).
Attachments
That matters for follow/draw, but not for sidespin. Same as simply hitting harder.
pj
chgo
In bold....this hasn't been proven.
You're probably right though, that the difference is only in the ratio. Anyway, I thought that's what this whole debunking thing was supposed to prove, that different tip hardnesses don't provide different spin results. But to me that means the stroke delivery would have to be consistent and two different tips would have to used with identical cues.
What difference do you think different cues would make? More/less power transfer, I guess - like hitting harder/softer. Why not just test by hitting harder/softer (all else the same) to compare results?
pj
chgo
Set it up and do it. I await the video.
Should be same deflection and weight. The only thing different should be tip hardness. That's a test result I'd like to see. Just curious.
Thanks. Pretty obvious. The lower you hit the CB with a shot like this, the better draw you will get. And close-range draw does not require much CB speed.
Hitting harder. Yes. Lol... ok.
Let's say two baseball players are talking about two different baseball bats. Both bats weigh the same and are the same size. One bat, however, is made of thick plastic with a soft rubber coating around it, while the other is a standard aluminum bat.
One guy says, "I bet the aluminum bat drives the ball farther." The other guy says, "I bet there's no difference in how far each bat can drive the ball."
The 1st guy says, "Prove it."
So the second guy places a ball on a tee/stand and swings the aluminum bat with a normal swing, making perfect contact with ball. The ball goes 200ft. He then tees up another identical ball and gives it a smack with the plastic/rubber bat. The ball goes 200ft, and he turns and says, "See, I told you....there's no difference."
The 1st guy says, "Wow, that suprised me. I thought you'd have to swing the rubber bat a lot faster." The second guys says, "I did. That's the only way I could prove it."
Fun story. Is there a point?Hitting harder. Yes. Lol... ok.
Let's say two baseball players are talking about two different baseball bats. Both bats weigh the same and are the same size. One bat, however, is made of thick plastic with a soft rubber coating around it, while the other is a standard aluminum bat.
One guy says, "I bet the aluminum bat drives the ball farther." The other guy says, "I bet there's no difference in how far each bat can drive the ball."
The 1st guy says, "Prove it."
So the second guy places a ball on a tee/stand and swings the aluminum bat with a normal swing, making perfect contact with ball. The ball goes 200ft. He then tees up another identical ball and gives it a smack with the plastic/rubber bat. The ball goes 200ft, and he turns and says, "See, I told you....there's no difference."
The 1st guy says, "Wow, that suprised me. I thought you'd have to swing the rubber bat a lot faster." The second guys says, "I did. That's the only way I could prove it."
pj
chgo
kanzzo
hobby player
was shocked to see, where I am actually hitting the CBYep - that's why spin tests always say to use a marked CB and check chalk marks. (Some people here seem to think controlling a variable like that is "rigging" the test.
pj
chgo
(or at least where the chalk ends up)Ordered training ball from Jim Rempe for more testing...
Sort of. A harder tip produces more speed and spin than a softer tip when the same stroke effort is used, though any significance of the difference is questionable.
Still, it would be nice to know just how much different certain shots would play with a hard tip (not phenolic) vs a super-soft tip when all other factors are equal, like cue deflection and stroke speed.
So the point of the story is this: The two baseball bats affect the ball differently, but the proof test was modified in a manner to make the results equal (swinging one bat faster than the other). Similarly, tip hardness affects the amount of speed and spin imparted on the cb, but the proof test involved making the results equal through equal cb speeds. In other words, any actual difference in cb spin could've been trumped by producing different stroke speeds.
Also, what was the hardness of the tips being used? Was one a hard tip and one a super soft? That would be a great comparison to prove or disprove tip/spin myths, as long as equal stroke effort was applied. But I realize that would involve a much more challenging or complicated test procedure. So it is what it is.
None of this will change my game at all, as I've used all sorts of tips, and the main thing that I notice between hard and soft tips is how the same stroke effort gets different cb results. But this irons itself out after a few games.
I think the spin effect (angle change off a rail) for a given tip offset is the same at any speed - it doesn't matter whether you make CB speed, stroke speed or neither the same. It's the tip offset.
pj
chgo
Regardless of equipment?Great if you want to run 714 points in 14.1 thoughfor real though hats off to Shaw for that. regardless of equipment. My bad for getting off-topic here.
Here's VP4's simulation of the actual test that I've done for that.
Tip offset is fixed at about 1/3 of maximum right on the equator - only the speed setting is varied. VP's result is the same as mine: all shots from the softest to the hardest hit the second rail in the same place - i.e., they all have the same spin effect, even though they have minimum to maximum RPMs.
So changing speed/force alone doesn't change "spin", at least according to me and cartoon pool.
I've done this on a real table with various cues and tips with the same results. Consider this my video.
pj
chgo
Last edited:
So I guess none of this matters. I mean, if a harder offset hit causes more speed but somehow doesn't result in more spin, I'm definitely lost.
Actually, calling it a "harder" hit is wrong.
A harder tip has a more efficient hit. I'm not talking about the difference between hitting a shot hard with a soft tip and hitting it soft with a soft tip. I'm just thinking about hitting a shot at the same stroke speed with two different tips. The more efficient tip should produce more cb speed and more cb spin.
Maybe I'm missing something simple here and just need to go to sleep. Lol
By the way, I get the same results as you when shooting the same spin soft or firm. Not sure how much difference there would be between a super soft tip and a hard or medium hard tip trying the same thing. Could be very little, or no difference at all. Maybe tip efficiency is meaningless. That's the proof test I'd like to see. But it seems like different shaft deflections would have an effect also, since a LD shaft has less influence on the cb compared to a non-LD shaft. I imagine the cb feels more of a 19oz cue with a non-LD shaft hit, compared to a 19oz cue with a LD shaft.
Last edited: