Tuck and Roll

[SpiderWebComm]

There is something to this. One time I tried to emulate Bustamante by placing my cue tip on the table and envisioning how I wanted to hit the shit and just letting it fly. I was very surprised at how well I pocketed balls and got shape.

Something about just letting instinct take over can be very powerful.

There is also something to a number of ways to play the game outside those that are etched in stone like 100 soldiers marching in lockstep with each other.

I think pool is kind of like the very beginning of baseball when the pitches thrown revolved around speed only. Fast, slow, and everything in between. But thinking outside the box eventually developed into the ball being able to curve in both directions,
drop like it fell off a table, not spin at all and "knuckle" through the air, and rise from it's initial trajectory.

Pool isn't just about adhering to straight lines either. There's a lot of motion and movement that can be done with the cue, cue angle, and hand alterations (dynamically or preset) to produce all kinds of different effects and outcomes. It isn't a 2D drawing
that's cut and dry. Nor like a boring "box step" in dancing. Dance now is about art and movements. I think Efren and Bustamante have shown that for decades with the way they handle a cue.

 

[tim913]

You don't seem to care about something that's absolutely necessary for contact point aiming which IS the CB contact point. It's equal and opposite to the contact point you've determined on the OB. PJ even said it in one of his posts but let it go and didn't follow up.
Joe Tucker, pro player and pro instructor is the top person out there who teaches contact point aiming. I took multiple lessons in person with him. You must have the CB contact the OB contact point with an equal and opposite spot. He even invented contact point training balls. They are geometrically sound. What are you focusing on with the CB to strike the OB contact point? It has to be something.

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If I aim at the contact point on the OB and the ball goes in the hole why would I care about the contact point on the CB? Maybe decades ago, when I was learning how to aim, it mattered but now it’s just a subconscious thing. If it’s a cut shot, 90 degrees , or 45 degrees or whatever or a straight in shot I look at the point on the OB and that’s all.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If I aim at the contact point on the OB and the ball goes in the hole why would I care about the contact point on the CB? Maybe decades ago, when I was learning how to aim, it mattered but now it’s just a subconscious thing. If it’s a cut shot, 90 degrees , or 45 degrees or whatever or a straight in shot I look at the point on the OB and that’s all.

It sounds like you've mastered the game. What big pro tournament will you be playing in next? I'd like to follow you.

 

[tim913]

I’m in no way saying that the way I aim is the best and that CB contact point to OB contact point isn’t important. It has to happen or the ball won’t go in. I know about CTE, ghost ball, track system and others and spent some time in the past trying them out. I can’t aim at something I can’t see. The contact point is something I can see and although the CB to OB contact has to take place for the ball to go in I do not focus on it when aiming at all. You should use the system that works for you.

 

[straightline]

I think you need to shoot 500 - 1000 rounds of any and all calibers with handguns and rifles before coming to the conclusions that you have.

Those are theories not conclusions.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I’m in no way saying that the way I aim is the best and that CB contact point to OB contact point isn’t important. It has to happen or the ball won’t go in. I know about CTE, ghost ball, track system and others and spent some time in the past trying them out. I can’t aim at something I can’t see. The contact point is something I can see and although the CB to OB contact has to take place for the ball to go in I do not focus on it when aiming at all. You should use the system that works for you.

I do. And it IS CTE and Shishkabob. I could never go back to any of the others. I've been playing for 30 years so my choice to use
them isn't because I've gotten brainwashed or more stupid. It's because they work and are simple to use.
Hey, good playing to you and I sincerely mean it.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Those are theories not conclusions.

If you shot 500-1000 rounds with multiple types of guns and how they're aimed, you would no longer have theories.

 

[straightline]

The video is simply a way of (what a lot of old timers call coming across the face of the ball) applying english using little subtle hand or wrist movements.

It's been going on since Hector was a pup. What's really baffling is it doesn't correlate with your OP. That seemed to be a way one particular person rotated his wrist to effect different cuts on the OB.

English was never mentioned.
Have a nice day.
Your friend, Sparkle.

It's like active BHE. \o/? Terry Bell was a name player in the 70s I believe. There was Brienza, Marino, Bell, a dozen others - Only Sigel Varner Rempe Miz won anything. Wuttevuh...

 

[straightline]

If you shot 500-1000 rounds with multiple types of guns and how they're aimed, you would no longer have theories.

Don't care for guns. People use the rifle analogy to pool, I try to assimilate it.

 

[skogstokig]

Buddy Hall, one of the greats of the game, originally had a video explaining tuck and roll and how to use it. But put it on a forum where everyone is an expert as well as a Hall of Famer in their own mind and look out! Buddy has no clue what he's talking about.

i didn't say that. i said it wasn't for me. that would indicate preference rather than dismissal, for most readers.

also, buddy had many videos out there, as had many of his contemporaries. not all of them reflect how they actually play the game. it was a way to make money, and that's ok. i don't remember seeing buddy actually play this way.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

i didn't say that. i said it wasn't for me. that would indicate preference rather than dismissal, for most readers.

also, buddy had many videos out there, as had many of his contemporaries. not all of them reflect how they actually play the game. it was a way to make money, and that's ok.

So, you're saying Buddy Hall was making crap up that he didn't use just to make money on a video, is that correct?

i don't remember seeing buddy actually play this way.

It's not like it sticks out and is very obvious. If you don't know that he's doing it or what to look for there's nothing weird. He was always smooth with his stroke and transition. The older players from way back had a good bit of backhand action going on when they shot but it's a subtle movement.

I found it! Click on the video and forward it to 1:27.00 and watch it from there. He talks about tuck and roll and demonstrates it. Look now for what you didn't see ever before.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

How to pivot and how much to pivot with back hand English for different shots and position.

 

[ShootingArts]

So, you're saying Buddy Hall was making crap up that he didn't use just to make money on a video, is that correct?

It's not like it sticks out and is very obvious. If you don't know that he's doing it or what to look for there's nothing weird. He was always smooth with his stroke and transition. The older players from way back had a good bit of backhand action going on when they shot but it's a subtle movement.

I found it! Click on the video and forward it to 1:27.00 and watch it from there. He talks about tuck and roll and demonstrates it. Look now for what you didn't see ever before.

The tuck and roll as Buddy describes it is the worst thing I ever did to my pool game. A few months of that and it took years to get that out of my stroke! Even today if I grip all the way to the buttcap and bumper I have to be very careful not to get these motions in my cue. What Buddy Hall did playing constantly for years doesn't translate to what normal humans can do.

Also, Buddy and every other pool player was chasing a buck. Buddy put out some questionable things or let his name be associated with them to put it gently. Buddy was one of the greatest players on two legs for a lot of years but that doesn't mean he didn't market some questionable things!

In half a century around pool I have heard very little bad about Buddy. Considering the jealousy and envy of many pool players that says a lot. Some of the grand gentlemen of pool don't stand up to scrutiny nearly as well as Buddy does. I respect the player and the man. That puts him on a short list of pro's with me. I still don't try to hang a halo on him.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So, you're saying Buddy Hall was making crap up that he didn't use just to make money on a video, is that correct?

It's not like it sticks out and is very obvious. If you don't know that he's doing it or what to look for there's nothing weird. He was always smooth with his stroke and transition. The older players from way back had a good bit of backhand action going on when they shot but it's a subtle movement.

I found it! Click on the video and forward it to 1:27.00 and watch it from there. He talks about tuck and roll and demonstrates it. Look now for what you didn't see ever before.

Terrible advice - shows even the best pros can be wrong.

Pivoting the cue beforehand and stroking straight through the tip/ball contact point without swiping/swooping/tucking/rolling is the most consistent, accurate and easiest-to-learn way to apply side spin. Moving the hand/wrist/tip sideways during the stroke adds nothing but complications.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The tuck and roll as Buddy describes it is the worst thing I ever did to my pool game. A few months of that and it took years to get that out of my stroke! Even today if I grip all the way to the buttcap and bumper I have to be very careful not to get these motions in my cue. What Buddy Hall did playing constantly for years doesn't translate to what normal humans can do.

I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks. You had a negative result and I had and still have a positive result.
It really isn't complicated. I never saw him with his grip all the way to the buttcap and bumper. Why do you even have it back that far?

Also, Buddy and every other pool player was chasing a buck. Buddy put out some questionable things or let his name be associated with them to put it gently. Buddy was one of the greatest players on two legs for a lot of years but that doesn't mean he didn't market some questionable things!

I know he allowed his name to be put on Lucasi cues at one point and used a Lucasi in tournaments. I have one. Endorsements have always been big money makers for pro players in all sports. Nothing wrong with that at all. He certainly didn't become rich from the video he did with tuck and roll. I don't even know how it was sold or the electronic device it was played on.
Maybe a bulky video cassette?

In half a century around pool I have heard very little bad about Buddy. Considering the jealousy and envy of many pool players that says a lot. Some of the grand gentlemen of pool don't stand up to scrutiny nearly as well as Buddy does. I respect the player and the man. That puts him on a short list of pro's with me. I still don't try to hang a halo on him.

Hu

Whatever your reasons are is up to you. I'm sure you and I don't hang a halo on each other either. Life goes on.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Terrible advice - shows even the best pros can be wrong.

Are you always right? Have you ever been wrong? What pro player or pro instructor have you beat?

Pivoting the cue beforehand and stroking straight through the tip/ball contact point without swiping/swooping/tucking/rolling is the most consistent, accurate and easiest-to-learn way to apply side spin.

Since when did you ever promote pivoting? This is a first. If not, please post where you said it before. Your way is a straight alignment offset from CCB to either the right or left of COB for spin and factor in deflection. Btw, it does NOT have to be aimed at the contact point. There are other methods for where to aim and pivot. Contact points are immaterial.

Moving the hand/wrist during the stroke adds nothing but complications.

Yes it could, and no it doesn't for those that have played for a good while and know how to handle a cue. Not for everyone, that's for sure. But practice it enough and it's second nature.

 

[ShootingArts]

I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks. You had a negative result and I had and still have a positive result.
It really isn't complicated. I never say him with his grip all the way to the buttcap and bumper. Why do you even have it back that far?

I know he allowed his name to be put on Lucasi cues at one point and used a Lucasi in tournaments. I have one. Endorsements have always been big money makers for pro players in all sports. Nothing wrong with that at all. He certainly didn't become rich from the video he did with tuck and roll. I don't even know how it was sold or the electronic device it was played on.

Whatever your reasons are is up to you. I'm sure you and I don't hang a halo on each other either. Life goes on.

The grip hand was way back for a couple reasons. I very rarely needed a bridge! The other reason was that I figured if there were any errors in stroke or stance, a half inch to one side in my grip meant less at the buttcap than a half inch to one side in the middle of the wrap did. Also, I dislike two surfaces under my grip hand. This means that with wrapped cues I have to either move my hand forward or back. In that time I chose to move it back. With the speed of today's tables I am more likely to move it forward.

I spent thousands of hours learning to play with very little in the way of aid or aids. I tried a lot of things that fell by the wayside. They seemed worth trying at the time!

Hu

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I spent thousands of hours learning to play with very little in the way of aid or aids. I tried a lot of things that fell by the wayside. They seemed worth trying at the time!

Hu

Man, I sure know what you're saying and have done likewise.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Are you always right? Have you ever been wrong?

Isn't that what you're here to judge?

What pro player or pro instructor have you beat?

And this is apparently how you judge it. Brilliant.

Since when did you ever promote pivoting?

"Pivoting the cue beforehand and stroking straight through the tip/ball contact point without swiping/swooping/tucking/rolling"? I've been doing it and promoting it since before you started playing pool.

Your way is a straight alignment offset from CCB to either the right or left of COB for spin and factor in deflection.

I'm not sure what you're trying to describe here (pretty sure you're not either). For instance, what's "a straight alignment offset from CCB"? Does it mean with the cue angled (i.e. pivoted) to compensate for squirt? That's how I do it.

Btw, it does NOT have to be aimed at the contact point.

If you don't aim your straight stroke at the tip/ball contact point, how do you hit it?

pj <- maybe different languages
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Isn't that what you're here to judge?

I've judged it and have my answer. I want to hear it directly from you instead of you beating around the bush.

And this is apparently how you judge it. Brilliant.

Well, we know you certainly aren't certified to be an instructor and never have been. So why not "who have you beaten?"
Let's try it another way. Who have you instructed that is known in the world of pool as "players".

"Pivoting the cue beforehand and stroking straight through the tip/ball contact point without swiping/swooping/tucking/rolling"? I've been doing it and promoting it since before you started playing pool.

I've been playing pool for 30 years. You started playing pool when you were around 50 as per info on RSB when it was there. I saw it. You're 75 or 76 now. That's 25 years that you've been playing. You were always the all knowing expert telling everyone the right and wrong way to play the game even when you were basically a HACK beginner. (and still are)

I'm not sure what you're trying to describe here (pretty sure you're not either). For instance, what's "a straight alignment offset from CCB"? Does it mean with the cue angled (i.e. pivoted) to compensate for squirt? That's how I do it.

Can you please copy and paste where you said that and what topic on the forum?

If you don't aim your straight stroke at the tip/ball contact point, how do you hit it?

After all of these years that it was said hundreds of times over, not just by me but many others, and you have to ask this question again shows that answering it now is a waste of time. Contact points on CB or OB don't exist for me.