Suggestion for Fargo capped events: make the cap random each event

[iusedtoberich]

I see a recent trend of higher dollar fargo capped events. I think this is great for the sport. The caps seem to generally go every 100 points. This gives the players right on the 100 point border a distinct advantage, on nearly all of these events, nationwide. May I suggest random numbers are picked instead? This way, instead of the 598 and 698 players having the edge all over the country, the 537 has the edge one event. Next event the 632 has the edge. Next event the 668 has the edge. Next event the 442 has the edge. Etc.

 

[Jimmorrison]

This is being done now, in a few places, it’s a good idea. There have been a couple, north metro, MN.

 

[Island Drive]

My thinking may be wrong.
BUT.... Would a Fargo rating of 599 in a city with a 10 million population would have to be different than a city of 100,000.

 

[iusedtoberich]

My thinking may be wrong.
BUT.... Would a Fargo rating of 599 in a city with a 10 million population would have to be different than a city of 100,000.

I was not implying that. I was implying if every city in the country had a 599 and under capped event, then the same players (whether they stayed at home or travelled from 10 states away to play), would always have the edge.

Or, conversely, the 705 players would never have a chance. They'd be excluded from the 699 events, and they won't be competitive in Pro events.

 

[BasementDweller]

My thinking may be wrong.
BUT.... Would a Fargo rating of 599 in a city with a 10 million population would have to be different than a city of 100,000.

It's hard to believe this question still comes up, when it's been discussed -- and I'm not exaggerating -- 27 quadrillion times.

I'm coupled, you're coupled, we're coupled, they're coupled, coupling, coupling, coupling....

Oh and the random cutoff idea is a great idea.

 

[hang-the-9]

My thinking may be wrong.
BUT.... Would a Fargo rating of 599 in a city with a 10 million population would have to be different than a city of 100,000.

Yes it's wrong, there would just be more players that rating in a larger area not that their skill would be much different at a specific Fargo rating.

 

[Island Drive]

Thx.....hang the 9

 

[mikemosconi]

I think that split bracket tournaments make the most sense when Fargo is the measuring stick. I play in a split bracket - everyone below 500 Fargo on one side and everyone above 500 Fargo in the other bracket. I play in the upper bracket, and within each bracket, there is still a one game spot for each 50 point Fargo difference.

I like this format bc everyone can be a contender on a day when they are playing their best pool. The format rewards past success by not making the spots outrageous in favor of the lesser players and encourages those who are getting a spot to really sharpen their game to overcome the odds.

Those who complain about this format bc they are on the lower Fargo end of either bracket just need to see this as an opportunity to work harder on their game in order to take advantage of the spot that they are receiving in order to beat higher Fargo rated players in their bracket. if people are still comparing, find another sport or hobby, or just don't do tournaments.

 

[easy-e]

I think that split bracket tournaments make the most sense when Fargo is the measuring stick. I play in a split bracket - everyone below 500 Fargo on one side and everyone above 500 Fargo in the other bracket. I play in the upper bracket, and within each bracket, there is still a one game spot for each 50 point Fargo difference.

I like this format bc everyone can be a contender on a day when they are playing their best pool. The format rewards past success by not making the spots outrageous in favor of the lesser players and encourages those who are getting a spot to really sharpen their game to overcome the odds.

Those who complain about this format bc they are on the lower Fargo end of either bracket just need to see this as an opportunity to work harder on their game in order to take advantage of the spot that they are receiving in order to beat higher Fargo rated players in their bracket. if people are still comparing, find another sport or hobby, or just don't do tournaments.

The only problem with that (in my area at least) is that the lower end of the bracket would have 60 players and the higher end would have 10. If we put the line in the middle, the numbers would shrink because people don't want to play against 600+ rated players. Opening tournaments to higher fargo players kills the events.

 

[mikemosconi]

The only problem with that (in my area at least) is that the lower end of the bracket would have 60 players and the higher end would have 10. If we put the line in the middle, the numbers would shrink because people don't want to play against 600+ rated players. Opening tournaments to higher fargo players kills the events.

Agreed, one has to cater to their area demographics in terms of quality of play/ players in relation to the quantities of each group available.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I see a recent trend of higher dollar fargo capped events. I think this is great for the sport. The caps seem to generally go every 100 points. This gives the players right on the 100 point border a distinct advantage, on nearly all of these events, nationwide. May I suggest random numbers are picked instead? This way, instead of the 598 and 698 players having the edge all over the country, the 537 has the edge one event. Next event the 632 has the edge. Next event the 668 has the edge. Next event the 442 has the edge. Etc.

Doesn't Mob do exactly this?

 

[stewie]

I see a recent trend of higher dollar fargo capped events. I think this is great for the sport. The caps seem to generally go every 100 points. This gives the players right on the 100 point border a distinct advantage, on nearly all of these events, nationwide. May I suggest random numbers are picked instead? This way, instead of the 598 and 698 players having the edge all over the country, the 537 has the edge one event. Next event the 632 has the edge. Next event the 668 has the edge. Next event the 442 has the edge. Etc.

I would not like the goal post being moved around all the time. If it's capped at 600 and you are a 538, go and improve, if you want the edge. Randomly changing the cap would mean the 538 doesn't need to improve, to be the highest rated eventually. Which doesn't mean the 538 is winning that one time it's capped at 540 anyway.

If I would be a 600 and one week I can play and the other week I arbitrarily can't, i would be frustrated and may skip them altogether. Especially if you misread or didn't communicate and then you show up for nothing.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I would not like the goal post being moved around all the time. If it's capped at 600 and you are a 538, go and improve, if you want the edge. Randomly changing the cap would mean the 538 doesn't need to improve, to be the highest rated eventually. Which doesn't mean the 538 is winning that one time it's capped at 540 anyway.

If I would be a 600 and one week I can play and the other week I arbitrarily can't, i would be frustrated and may skip them altogether. Especially if you misread or didn't communicate and then you show up for nothing.

By and large players don’t improve once they are experienced. The local pecking order “almost” never changes. Neither does the professional pecking order. The exceptions are like 1/100.

You can actually see this better now with Fargo. I’d bet pretty big, the pecking order on players (established only) 8 years ago when it came our are nearly identical to those same players today. (Barring young kids 8 years ago and senior players today).

That would be an interesting analysis for Mike to do. Answer the age old question of “can a very experienced player substantially improve”.

 

[easy-e]

Agreed, one has to cater to their area demographics in terms of quality of play/ players in relation to the quantities of each group available.

Especially since "local tournament director" has become a career for some people.

 

[stewie]

By and large players don’t improve once they are experienced. The local pecking order “almost” never changes. Neither does the professional pecking order. The exceptions are like 1/100.

You can actually see this better now with Fargo. I’d bet pretty big, the pecking order on players (established only) 8 years ago when it came our are nearly identical to those same players today. (Barring young kids 8 years ago and senior players today).

That would be an interesting analysis for Mike to do. Answer the age old question of “can a very experienced player substantially improve”.

Well, part of this is part of the design. The higher your Fargo is, the "slower" that number moves. Same with robustness: the more recent matches you have, the slower the movements are.

If there are numbers showing improvement rates, I would be interested if players in countries with more handicapped events (looking at you, USA!) are "less" improving, than players from countries with more "even" competition.

 

[mikepage]

Well, part of this is part of the design. The higher your Fargo is, the "slower" that number moves. Same with robustness: the more recent matches you have, the slower the movements are.

If there are numbers showing improvement rates, I would be interested if players in countries with more handicapped events (looking at you, USA!) are "less" improving, than players from countries with more "even" competition.

Where does the idea the US has more handicapped events come from? Many and maybe even most of the top European players have games from handicapped events in their records. That is rare for top US players.

 

[stewie]

Where does the idea the US has more handicapped events come from? Many and maybe even most of the top European players have games from handicapped events in their records. That is rare for top US players.

My own experience is comparing only the US and Germany. All the leagues and mostly all tournaments were not handicapped. Tournaments, maybe, had a tiered entry fee. How would the Germans have so many handicapped matches in the system?

 

[JolietJames]

Doesn't Mob do exactly this?

They have half of their big ones fixed at a number and half are drawn from what I recall. Drawing the number is definitely the best idea.
The big split brackets here in the south are often unfair from what I have heard. We have TDs setting handicaps and bidding in the calcuttas.
At this point, Fargo should be used in all high-dollar tourneys that are not open.even.

 

[mikepage]

My own experience is comparing only the US and Germany. All the leagues and mostly all tournaments were not handicapped. Tournaments, maybe, had a tiered entry fee. How would the Germans have so many handicapped matches in the system?

We don't have much information in Germany.
But if you look at the Oslo Open in Norway, a handicapped event from a few years ago, you will find Souquet, Gorst, He, Feijen, Wiktor Zielinski, Casper M, Pijus L, Damianos, Imran Majid, Mark Gray, etc. There are other ones like this like the Interpool Open in Sweden.

If you look at the following event from this February, you see top players like Wojciech Szewzyk or Mario He start at -2 and go to 8 while the weakest players start at 5 going to 8. Francesco Candela, a 747 from Italy, gets a spot from the top dogs. Karl Gnadeberg, a 712 from Estonia, gets a 2-games spot from the top dogs.

Hill Hill HCP 20.02.2023

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

Finland has a high number of top players, and if you look for example at Petri Makkonen, the highest rated, you'll see multiple handicapped tournaments per week

Petri Makkonen

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

Greece has a lot of top players, and Alex Kazakis is the best. If you look at his schedule you'll see 8 or 9 handicapped tournaments in the last 2 months

Alex Kazakis

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

This kind of thing--any of it--would be unheard of in the US for the top players.

 

[stewie]

We don't have much information in Germany.
But if you look at the Oslo Open in Norway, a handicapped event from a few years ago, you will find Souquet, Gorst, He, Feijen, Wiktor Zielinski, Casper M, Pijus L, Damianos, Imran Majid, Mark Gray, etc. There are other ones like this like the Interpool Open in Sweden.

If you look at the following event from this February, you see top players like Wojciech Szewzyk or Mario He start at -2 and go to 8 while the weakest players start at 5 going to 8. Francesco Candela, a 747 from Italy, gets a spot from the top dogs. Karl Gnadeberg, a 712 from Estonia, gets a 2-games spot from the top dogs.

Hill Hill HCP 20.02.2023

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

Finland has a high number of top players, and if you look for example at Petri Makkonen, the highest rated, you'll see multiple handicapped tournaments per week

Petri Makkonen

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

Greece has a lot of top players, and Alex Kazakis is the best. If you look at his schedule you'll see 8 or 9 handicapped tournaments in the last 2 months

Alex Kazakis

CueScore helps people organize and run billiard tournaments, keep track of events near you, view livescores and checkout your competition. Run tournaments for you and your friends, or enter national championships in the same system.

cuescore.com

This kind of thing--any of it--would be unheard of in the US for the top players.

Oh, okay, didn't know that. Are you able to tell a difference of a player's progress, depending on having almost no handicapped input vs a lot of handicapped input?

And as to the lack of German data, wouldn't there be a lot of data from all their leagues and nationals/regionals over the years? Or is your main input cuescore data?