How do these diamond tables play so badly? vid

boogieman said:
Honestly show me a non heated, non 3C table that does anything by system. You will not find a table that does anything on system, you must adapt. The systems are a baseline and you make up the difference. The better the player, the faster they adapt to conditions. Speed, spin, aim. Diamonds are consistent and can be counted on, they may be different to the "system" but so is every other pocket billiards table on the face of the earth.
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Absolutely the best answer to all banking complaints to every pocket pool table ever built!!! The Diamond system was developed from game of 3 cushion, because EVERY shot depends on accurately calculated banks, which is why they use cloth to FAST for pool tables, heated slates to eliminate moisture drag, higher density cushions so the banks are consistent, shot hard or soft, and BIGGER balls, that weigh more, and travel further because of that extra weight!!! There are NO straight in shots on a 3C table, EVERY shot is at least 3 rails or more!!!
 
PowerStroke said:
yes it will. even more so.
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You are absolutely full of shit buddy! 100's of Diamond black cushions have been installed on GC's around the country, and not ONE person has ever complained that their table played like a Diamond!! Furthermore, many members here on AZB have had those very same cushions installed, ask them if their tables play like a Diamond!!!

West State Billiards Supply in Fullerton, CA sells 1000,s of the SAME cushions every year buddy, NO complaints!!!
 
realkingcobra said:
Absolutely the best answer to all banking complaints to every pocket pool table ever built!!! The Diamond system was developed from game of 3 cushion, because EVERY shot depends on accurately calculated banks, which is why they use cloth to FAST for pool tables, heated slates to eliminate moisture drag, higher density cushions so the banks are consistent, shot hard or soft, and BIGGER balls, that weigh more, and travel further because of that extra weight!!!
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The elephant in the room is that good players know how to read how a table is compared to "system" and adapt.

For those wanting to know, I remember reading "The Kicking Academy" by Dead Aim years ago. He goes over how to adapt.

Why do some folks blame the most consistent solid built table that you can tune to a gnat's ass for what should be common knowledge. Why do folks think the road players always pissed around with 3 rail shots when they first got on a table? The real world is the real world, if you want perfection you will have to download some pool video games, short of that there are real world conditions.

The better player adjusts instead of making excuses for why a bank was short. Hey dum dum if it consistently banks short maybe you should learn to bank because you ain't winning games through excuses! ;) :)
 
realkingcobra said:
You are absolutely full of shit buddy! 100's of Diamond black cushions have been installed on GC's around the country, and not ONE person has ever complained that their table played like a Diamond!! Furthermore, many members here on AZB have had those very same cushions installed, ask them if their tables play like a Diamond!!!
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Glenn...Its John. I am not full of shit. Not interested in getting into a mechanics argument.

I never said it would play like a Diamond. I have installed Artemis cushions on a Goldcrown in my early days on a GC3 without a Sub-Rail modification so I know what the results are. You are trying to twist things around on me. You know my number you can call me if you like.

Since the very first ball I ever hit on a Diamond I didn't like them. But, Diamond pretty much owns the market these days so we all have no choice. People buy them because they think they are the best an I will concede they are the best made. Are they the best playing? I don't think so. Completely different from anything that came before it and it's not an improvement in that regard. That's how these threads get started. They are valid concerns and if most players payed attention or understood the difference then the threads would fill these forums.

I do have a question though. Is a current day 7' Diamond faster or slower than (pick a table) tables before it?
 
Everyone that complains about how the new modern-day tables play have MISSED the single biggest change in this games history, that has changed the way pool is played today!! The CLOTH was starting to change from woven woolen to the worsted woolen cloths every manufacturer is producing today!!! Out goes the need for a stroke, in comes the game of pitty pat pool!!!!
 
realkingcobra said:
Everyone that complains about how the new modern-day tables play have MISSED the single biggest change in this games history, that has changed the way pool is played today!! The CLOTH was starting to change from woven woolen to the worsted woolen cloths every manufacturer is producing today!!! Out goes the need for a stroke, in comes the game of pitty pat pool!!!!
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That certainly started it. That all happened before Diamond.
 
PowerStroke said:
Glenn...Its John. I am not full of shit. Not interested in getting into a mechanics argument.

I never said it would play like a Diamond. I have installed Artemis cushions on a Goldcrown in my early days on a GC3 without a Sub-Rail modification so I know what the results are. You are trying to twist things around on me. You know my number you can call me if you like.

Since the very first ball I ever hit on a Diamond I didn't like them. But, Diamond pretty much owns the market these days so we all have no choice. People buy them because they think they are the best an I will concede they are the best made. Are they the best playing? I don't think so. Completely different from anything that came before it and it's not an improvement in that regard. That's how these threads get started. They are valid concerns and if most players payed attention or understood the difference then the threads would fill these forums.

I do have a question though. Is a current day 7' Diamond faster or slower than (pick a table) tables before it?
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Artemis cushions don't belong on a pool table in my opinion, because they were designed for straight rail billiards tables, and have to much cushion nose contact with the balls, therefore transfer to much friction to the balls by way of spin and angle changes.
 
realkingcobra said:
Artemis cushions don't belong on a pool table in my opinion, because they were designed for straight rail billiards tables, and have to much cushion nose contact with the balls, therefore transfer to much friction to the balls by way of spin and angle changes.
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That's the answer! That's the correct answer to the entire thread. You would have ended this thread with that answer 50 responses ago.
 
Is it possible that a lot of us learned how to play on Brunswick equipment that had already been subject to pool room use for 30 40 or even 50 years and beaten half to death? Then when Diamond started making tables , every one was brand new? I have to admit, I was very upset when they started using diamond tables. I had extremely accurate kicking systems for 1 , 2 ,and 3 rail kicks and I could adjust them for about 3 speeds of hit. I couldn't kick or bank for diddle on a Diamond. I kept thinking about it after I blamed the quality of the table for a while, and found that actually Diamonds played extremely well, but they were very sensitive to the speed of the hit. Meaning the harder the ball was hit over the speed necessary to pocket it on a normal shot , the shorter it banked, Which I have since thought was probably because all the tables I played on before had cushions that were 30 to 60 years old in some cases, had been sat on, beat on, and subjected to weather, and moveing, and was probably not the same, as when it was new.
I am asking this as a serious question, is this possible? When I started playing in the mid 1960s, most of the tables I played on were the big 1900 to 1930 type. One room had all new Gold Crowns and I played a ball better there because of less roll off. I had not learned to overcome the roll off, by shooting a bit firmer, and killing the cueball.
 
book collector said:
Is it possible that a lot of us learned how to play on Brunswick equipment that had already been subject to pool room use for 30 40 or even 50 years and beaten half to death? Then when Diamond started making tables , every one was brand new? I have to admit, I was very upset when they started using diamond tables. I had extremely accurate kicking systems for 1 , 2 ,and 3 rail kicks and I could adjust them for about 3 speeds of hit. I couldn't kick or bank for diddle on a Diamond. I kept thinking about it after I blamed the quality of the table for a while, and found that actually Diamonds played extremely well, but they were very sensitive to the speed of the hit. Meaning the harder the ball was hit over the speed necessary to pocket it on a normal shot , the shorter it banked, Which I have since thought was probably because all the tables I played on before had cushions that were 30 to 60 years old in some cases, had been sat on, beat on, and subjected to weather, and moveing, and was probably not the same, as when it was new.
I am asking this as a serious question, is this possible? When I started playing in the mid 1960s, most of the tables I played on were the big 1900 to 1930 type. One room had all new Gold Crowns and I played a ball better there because of less roll off. I had not learned to overcome the roll off, by shooting a bit firmer, and killing the cueball.
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Brunswick still makes tables. Not all are old. Reports of 30 year old tables with original rubber on them playing perfect to this day. Brunswick produced its own cushions. Specific to its tables. In other words the table was designed originally from the ground up with the intent of using a certain cushion. Those tables have been the gold standard for a century. The biggest issue with Gold Crowns is the setup and maintenance. Also the fact that pocket size and angles have changed over the years and Bruswick didn't stay up to date with the changing industry. No one could standardize the pockets. So you ended up with shimmed, inconsistent pocket sizes and angles all around the country. In order to get current angles and size of pockets resized it required significant modifications to the table after ownership. So the slow death of Brunswick is a bummer. One thing about Diamond is they are at least consistent. Good or bad.
 
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book collector said:
Is it possible that a lot of us learned how to play on Brunswick equipment that had already been subject to pool room use for 30 40 or even 50 years and beaten half to death? Then when Diamond started making tables , every one was brand new? I have to admit, I was very upset when they started using diamond tables. I had extremely accurate kicking systems for 1 , 2 ,and 3 rail kicks and I could adjust them for about 3 speeds of hit. I couldn't kick or bank for diddle on a Diamond. I kept thinking about it after I blamed the quality of the table for a while, and found that actually Diamonds played extremely well, but they were very sensitive to the speed of the hit. Meaning the harder the ball was hit over the speed necessary to pocket it on a normal shot , the shorter it banked, Which I have since thought was probably because all the tables I played on before had cushions that were 30 to 60 years old in some cases, had been sat on, beat on, and subjected to weather, and moveing, and was probably not the same, as when it was new.
I am asking this as a serious question, is this possible? When I started playing in the mid 1960s, most of the tables I played on were the big 1900 to 1930 type. One room had all new Gold Crowns and I played a ball better there because of less roll off. I had not learned to overcome the roll off, by shooting a bit firmer, and killing the cueball.
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There was two basic cloths everyone played on Pryor to the mid 80's. Either Stevens 22oz Superweave or Brunco1 BOTH of which were a woven woolen cloth, and NOT the thick cloth produced by the MALI, WARREN, CHARLES HOUSE, or any all the other woolen cloth manufacturers back in that time, and NOT like the stupid IPT cloth either, that was the worst cloth ever made! Now look at the cloth industry today, THERE'S your answer!!!
 
book collector said:
Is it possible that a lot of us learned how to play on Brunswick equipment that had already been subject to pool room use for 30 40 or even 50 years and beaten half to death? Then when Diamond started making tables , every one was brand new? I have to admit, I was very upset when they started using diamond tables. I had extremely accurate kicking systems for 1 , 2 ,and 3 rail kicks and I could adjust them for about 3 speeds of hit. I couldn't kick or bank for diddle on a Diamond. I kept thinking about it after I blamed the quality of the table for a while, and found that actually Diamonds played extremely well, but they were very sensitive to the speed of the hit. Meaning the harder the ball was hit over the speed necessary to pocket it on a normal shot , the shorter it banked, Which I have since thought was probably because all the tables I played on before had cushions that were 30 to 60 years old in some cases, had been sat on, beat on, and subjected to weather, and moveing, and was probably not the same, as when it was new.
I am asking this as a serious question, is this possible? When I started playing in the mid 1960s, most of the tables I played on were the big 1900 to 1930 type. One room had all new Gold Crowns and I played a ball better there because of less roll off. I had not learned to overcome the roll off, by shooting a bit firmer, and killing the cueball.
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You make excellent points. Those old nine and ten foot tables played "right" because they are what we made our bones on. Now we have a generation or two that learned on Diamonds. For them, "right" is how a Diamond in good shape banks. I laugh when I read of a table banking long. There is not a table in the world that banks long.

It strikes me that it would be fun to have a table with electrically wired solenoids behind the cushions so they really did bank true, angle in equals angle out. Most people who were used to standard tables of any brand would complain bitterly about how long these tables banked!

Even the Diamonds are subject to environment of course. I went to Dallas for a week. Used to the wet tables in New Orleans, I thought the tables in Dallas were fantastic! I would guess they moved more than halfway towards the theoretical perfect from how the Diamonds banked in New Orleans. It has been awhile since I played on them but I would guess the Diamonds in Dallas played several inches longer than those in New Orleans. I had a blast banking on them!

Working from memory, I would say a Diamond in Dallas banked the same or even a little longer than a Gold Crown in New Orleans. One thing that makes table performance discussions futile, most of us are talking about how tables play in different locations. Everyone can be entirely right about the tables in the location they are playing in and still disagree with each other.

I wish I knew the brand of the old ten footers that were some of the tables I cut my teeth on. Massive old beasts, huge pockets, nice saddle leather burners in the pockets that made a wonderful thunk when they were hit dead center. I didn't have the game to judge these tables. The main thing though, they were fun to play on!

Hu
 
realkingcobra said:
Same cushions installed on a GOLD CROWN, will it then play to springy????
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I have experience with this. At my home room, Drexeline Billiards in PA (now closed unfortunately due to the whole shopping center being torn down last year), we had 20 new GC4's purchased in 2001 or 2002. They all played great, the whole time until the room closed in 2022. Before that, the room was open since 1989 with older GC 1's and 2's, that also played great. I played in this room daily for 20 some years, and knew all the tables very well.

The room always had 2 triple shimmed tables for one pocket, about 8 double shimmed tables for 9 ball players, and the rest were the factory buckets for the bangers in the back of the room. All the tables played great.

In about 2015, the owner wanted to make the one pocket tables even nicer for us. Tons of one pocket played in the room. He had the 2 triple shimmed tables reworked with new cushions and extended rails, so the extra shims would be gone. He had 4 total tables reworked this way, rather than the 2 prior triple shimmed. The mechanic used the Diamond Black cushions. (To add, the superspeed cushions were still playing like the day they were new, they were not bad, the owner just wanted to give us a "no-shim" table)

The tables were ruined. They banked much springier than all the other tables in the room that still had the original super speed cushions. They were NOT as fast as springy as the same cushions on the 7' Diamond Blue tables. They were NOT as short as the same cushions on the 7' Blue Diamonds. But they were noticeably springier compared to the SuperSpeed.

Yes, we still played one pocket on these tables. Yes, we still gambled our brains out and had a nice time. But the wrong cushions were installed. SuperSpeed would have been much better.

IMO:)
 
realkingcobra said:
Absolutely the best answer to all banking complaints to every pocket pool table ever built!!! The Diamond system was developed from game of 3 cushion, because EVERY shot depends on accurately calculated banks, which is why they use cloth to FAST for pool tables, heated slates to eliminate moisture drag, higher density cushions so the banks are consistent, shot hard or soft, and BIGGER balls, that weigh more, and travel further because of that extra weight!!! There are NO straight in shots on a 3C table, EVERY shot is at least 3 rails or more!!!
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I am not a good enough 3C player to pick apart minor differences in the tables but they play different. I might notice long vs short when it is different enough. The good players hit test shots in warm ups to adjust. I never learned the Tuzul systems but I think the first thing you do is get a table value to use the systems. Anyway, the best players adjust and play on what is a wide variety. And we are talking differences on heated tables with clean premium cloth and clean balls.
 
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