Chang - Foul or Not?

Flakeandrun said:
*can of worms opens*

No, deal with the outcome, wasted opportunity? It's a legal hit?

My understanding, was that BIH can be moved with hand, in the air and placed, and physically manipulated into any position on the table. It was my understanding you could do this with the cue, but not the tip.

again, the sheer volume of tit-for-tat in this thread shows a drastic need to re-word, and revise what is actually the correct and appropriate action... it shouldn't be vague enough to fill 4 pages...
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It's really not that complicated. Don't move the ball forward with the tip of the cue with a forward motion of the cue and you won't be called for a foul.

Chang was sloppy and treated a refereed world championship tournament like a backroom gambling match, and he got burned.
 
skip100 said:
It's really not that complicated. Don't move the ball forward with the tip of the cue with a forward motion of the cue and you won't be called for a foul.

Chang was sloppy and treated a refereed world championship tournament like a backroom gambling match, and he got burned.
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I mean, I don't have the problem, I place with my hand...
The sheer nature of the thread, and the actual wording is unclear. It is clearly complicated enough for pros to make such errors, and for internet randoms to debate it for 4+ pages :ROFLMAO:
Concise wording and definition needed. A re-think of its expression in the laws.
 
skip100 said:
The fact that a small handful of people is willing to consistently miss the point and argue about it ad nauseam doesn’t mean the rule is vague.
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I mean, in words, it is definitively vague lol there should be zero room for interpretation of the laws of the game (any game tbh).
 
In all my years officiating tournaments we never allowed a player to move the cue ball with the tip of his cue! You could move it using the ferrule or side of the tip, but not the point or playing end of the tip. If you even touched the cue ball with the tip that was a foul, plain and simple. That was how we played pro tournaments for decades. Of course, the amateur leagues typically used different rules than we did in their matches. They allowed (and disallowed) certain things that would not fly in a pro tournament.
 
jay helfert said:
In all my years officiating tournaments we never allowed a player to move the cue ball with the tip of his cue! You could move it using the ferrule or side of the tip, but not the point or playing end of the tip. If you even touched the cue ball with the tip that was a foul, plain and simple. That was how we played pro tournaments for decades. Of course, the amateur leagues typically used different rules than we did in their matches. They allowed (and disallowed) certain things that would not fly in a pro tournament.
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Same here. At first glance it seemed like a chickenpoop call. If it had been the opposing player making the call with no ref there I would have said just that, the call was technically right but chickenshit.

However, watching the video, I see this match did have a referee. It is the referee's job to protect both player's interests. A referee can't and shouldn't ignore the front of the tip touching a cue ball.

As an opposing player I would never call it the first time it happened but I might comment it was an illegal contact after the other player's turn was over. As a referee, I call it each and every time! I have been an official at pool events, car races, rifle matches, pistol matches of various types, a few other things. As a fellow competitor I had some leeway about the rules. Everyone was warned I would be enforcing all rules in the meeting before competition started when I was an official.

Fred, I didn't bother checking but I suspect some of the last eighty-four replies were from the peanut gallery too. In all fairness I have clarified rules a bunch of times including at pool events.

Recap: A chickenshit call for another player to make, the only call a ref could make unless it was announced prior to the event that there was no penalty for touching the cue ball with the tip. Might call it the Uncle Phil rule. I suspect not a popular call but the right call. Good job ref!

Hu
 
Flakeandrun said:
I mean, in words, it is definitively vague lol there should be zero room for interpretation of the laws of the game (any game tbh).
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It is definitely worthy of a rewrite. If people casually ignore the word “stroke” to make their argument; then they have to call forward motion using just the ferrule or shaft a foul. The words and commas make this so.

When posters who are lawyers, technical writers, major billiard publication editors and major contributors to the game (tournaments, books, instructional etc) have a problem with the writing of the rule as written, that should be a flag to the casual posters.
 
FeelDaShot said:
I'm surprised this is even debatable. This is 100% a foul. You can roll the cue ball around with the ferrule all day long but you can never use the tip to poke at the cue ball like he did. This is common practice everywhere. Absolutely no question.
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I'm curious how you guys would handle this scenario:

Chang has ball in hand, places the cue ball into position, gets down on the shot, pumps back a warm up stroke, attempts to pause while finalizing aiming but the tip pokes the cue ball ever so slightly. Is this a foul? I sure as hell think so.

In both cases, it was obvious he wasn't attempting to shoot. I've always drawn a hard line that if you poke at the cue ball with your tip, it's a foul, regardless of intent or scenario. Sure it sounds nitty but it's a major no-no that everyone seems to understands very well. Lots of pool rules are super nitty but people tend to pick and choose which ones they accept.

How about if you accidently drop the chalk and it hits the cue ball (normal situation, not BIH)? How about accidentally touching an object ball when you have ball in hand? How about using your stick to measure? How about a shirt touching an object ball when playing all ball fouls? There are many many nitty rules that we all seem to accept. This is just another one of them.
 
This crap always amazes me. Of course, I'm a lowly league player, so...

If its a rule and especially if it's being officiated, just move it with your hand and not worry about this crap. Sop worrying about your version of "how it should be". Just proceed in a manner where it can't be questioned, and you don't have these things happen.

Do I move the cue ball with my stick, occasionally, but way up the shaft, not near the ferrule. And the few chances I get to play in higher level league tourneys, I'll just move it by hand and not give the other guy an opportunity to be "a nit".

Sure, in a perfect world everyone would be gentleman and play nice. We all know that ain't the way of the world. Control what you can, and minimize the opportunity for crap like this.
 
Cornerman said:
It feels like we’ve addressed this “touching the cueball with the tip during BiH” a thousand times. I always understood this not to be a foul. But John called it. The wording says, “forward stroke.” I don’t think for one moment what Chang did constitutes a forward stroke. The intent was clear: positioning the cueball.


Really, I’m not looking for opinions from people who have nothing to do with creating or clarifying the rules. So really looking to Bob, Dr Dave, RandyG, even Ozzy.

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Thanks for posting this Freddie. The rules definitely need to be clarified on this matter.

I personally think we should allow a player to use any part of the cue (including the tip) to position the CB with ball in hand, assuming there is no obvious shooting motion based on the situation at hand.

Or we should make it totally clear that it is a foul if any part of the top of the tip touches the CB during ball in hand.

I generally prefer removing "petty fouls" from the game, but I could go either way on this one.
 
justadub said:
This crap always amazes me. Of course, I'm a lowly league player, so...

If its a rule and especially if it's being officiated, just move it with your hand and not worry about this crap. Sop worrying about your version of "how it should be". Just proceed in a manner where it can't be questioned, and you don't have these things happen.

Do I move the cue ball with my stick, occasionally, but way up the shaft, not near the ferrule. And the few chances I get to play in higher level league tourneys, I'll just move it by hand and not give the other guy an opportunity to be "a nit".

Sure, in a perfect world everyone would be gentleman and play nice. We all know that ain't the way of the world. Control what you can, and minimize the opportunity for crap like this.
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Chang wanted to make sure the cue ball was exactly where he wanted it to be. To do that he had to see it from the end of the table where he was standing. He couldn't reach the spot with his hand so he used his cue to maneuver it into into position.
 
Mike Massey called it on Danny Diliberto if memory serves me right for pushing the cue ball where he wanted it with forward stroke. They should clarify that only the side of the tip may be used like the old rules were back in the 80s. What he did would have been a foul then and certainly is now even though it is nitty.
 
It’s the stupidest foul of all, you can move the ball with the shaft or ferrule but oh buddy of it hits the tip, that means your trying to cheat somehow and gain an unfair advantage when in actuality if he we’re trying to spear one hand push the ball with his tip it’s a severe disadvantage to the player

Say it out loud and tell me It doesn’t sound stupid

Stupid iPhone it IT damnit lol
 
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cueman said:
Mike Massey called it on Danny Diliberto if memory serves me right for pushing the cue ball where he wanted it with forward stroke. They should clarify that only the side of the tip may be used like the old rules were back in the 80s. What he did would have been a foul then and certainly is now even though it is nitty.
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Do you realize that 'nitty' means infested with nits?
 
Texas Carom Club said:
It’s the stupidest foul of all, you can move the ball with the shaft or ferrule but oh buddy of it hits the tip, that means your trying to cheat somehow and gain an unfair advantage when in actuality if he we’re trying to spear one hand push the ball with his tip it’s a severe disadvantage to the player

Say it out loud and tell me I doesn’t sound stupid
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You doesn't.
 
rjb1168 said:
It's a foul, but i would never call it.
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There are people that will
Playing a jnj tournament we out played th other team on the hill to get bih on an open 8
When I do that I just shake they’re hand and say good game but I ran up took the ball and shot then seconds later they go Wayminute lol it was her turn not yours

Yeah people do that shit, might as well take it where you can
 
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