Chang - Foul or Not?

iusedtoberich said:
... and not even attempt to help the ref with the balls, like in Snooker.
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I don't recall ever seeing a snooker player help fetch a color during a frame in a refereed match. I suspect it happens sometimes if there is no ref. Pro players do sometimes fetch balls at the end of a frame but the frame will have been declared won at that point.

There is a story of an exception, though. I forget which book I read it in. It seems there was this well-known strict referee....

The match between Smith and Jones was down to the final black ball of the final frame with the score tied. The next score would end the match. Smith made a difficult cut along the rail, the black went down, and the ref began, "Match ...", and before he could finish Smith grabbed up the still-moving cue ball in triumph. The ref continued, "to Mr. Jones." Consternation and earnest discussion ensued, but the ruling stood.

As I recall, the story was related in a way that made it seem like it really had happened as opposed to a fabricated tale to warn against counting your chickens...
 
iusedtoberich said:
... Helping the ref get the balls after the 9/10 is pocketed and having a foul called is the nittiest rule in existence. I don't think that's even a WPA rule, but I could be wrong on that. ...
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The winning shot does not end until all the balls have stopped moving, and the game continues until the shot is finished. I have seen a player in a major tournament put his stick on the table after the winning ball went down directly in the line of the still-moving cue ball. No way the cue ball was going to scratch, but....

If a player intentionally touches any object ball during a game, it is unsportsmanlike conduct. It is up to the ref to decide the punishment -- roll eyes, warn, forfeit a game, throw out of the event. Some judgement is required.
 
RT Ford said:
Chang wanted to make sure the cue ball was exactly where he wanted it to be. To do that he had to see it from the end of the table where he was standing. He couldn't reach the spot with his hand so he used his cue to maneuver it into into position.
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There isn't any way he couldn't move to a spot where he could place the ball how he wanted. Its just the "having to walk around the table", rather than moving to be able to place it where you like.

Agan, I do it, too. (Tho not with the tip of the cue) But if the stakes were high enough, I'd like to eliminate anything that could possibly be questioned.
 
justadub said:
There isn't any way he couldn't move to a spot where he could place the ball how he wanted. Its just the "having to walk around the table", rather than moving to be able to place it where you like.

Agan, I do it, too. (Tho not with the tip of the cue) But if the stakes were high enough, I'd like to eliminate anything that could possibly be questioned.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. When you're lining up a shot where you're going to have to use a bridge, it's easier to line the shot up from the position you'll be addressing it. In Chang's case, it was from the far end of the table where he was standing. As I stated previously, if the 'ball in hand' rule that was shown earlier was valid in that tournament, Chang did not commit a foul.
 
By my ref training for VNEA 25 years ago it would be a foul. Today with all the different variations between governing bodies & refs personnel interpretations . I can see this happening as it did and probably always will
 
If there is a ref for a match his/her job is to follow the rules. Period. Many players just do not go to the player meetings. The DCC is a classic example of this.

Just think if you were in a players meeting and someone said "If I forget and push the cue ball with my cue, will this be a foul?" No, for you we will disregard the rules. LOL
 
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FeelDaShot said:
I'm curious how you guys would handle this scenario:

Chang has ball in hand, places the cue ball into position, gets down on the shot, pumps back a warm up stroke, attempts to pause while finalizing aiming but the tip pokes the cue ball ever so slightly. Is this a foul? I sure as hell think so.

In both cases, it was obvious he wasn't attempting to shoot. I've always drawn a hard line that if you poke at the cue ball with your tip, it's a foul, regardless of intent or scenario. Sure it sounds nitty but it's a major no-no that everyone seems to understands very well. Lots of pool rules are super nitty but people tend to pick and choose which ones they accept.

How about if you accidently drop the chalk and it hits the cue ball (normal situation, not BIH)? How about accidentally touching an object ball when you have ball in hand? How about using your stick to measure? How about a shirt touching an object ball when playing all ball fouls? There are many many nitty rules that we all seem to accept. This is just another one of them.
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I saw it happen several times over the years. Experienced players accidentally touching the cue ball as they prepare to shoot. They usually call this foul on themselves when it happens. Accidentally drop the chalk and hit the cue ball - Foul! Touching an object ball when playing Foul On All Balls - also a Foul. Shirt touching an object ball with the same rules - Foul!
 
The_JV said:
Not a fan of Leyman generally but he got it right. It's a foul.

Just a shame this wasn't a Mosconi Cup match and a call against USA. I could be entertained by this thread for another month.
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Ditto. He generally gets it wrong. Standing in the wrong place. Making the wrong call. Not paying attention. This time he got it right.

As my German friends would say...Even a blind chicken finds a piece of corn once in a while.
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Nick B said:
Ditto. He generally gets it wrong. Standing in the wrong place. Making the wrong call. Not paying attention. This time he got it right.

As my German friends would say...Even a blind chicken finds a piece of corn once in a while.
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Around here we say "even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then." Slightly different saying, same meaning. I always wonder if such lingual things start off the same and one group modifies the saying or if they evolve separately. Not that it matters, I just find old sayings interesting.

Hu
 
jay helfert said:
I saw it happen several times over the years. Experienced players accidentally touching the cue ball as they prepare to shoot. They usually call this foul on themselves when it happens. Accidentally drop the chalk and hit the cue ball - Foul! Touching an object ball when playing Foul On All Balls - also a Foul. Shirt touching an object ball with the same rules - Foul!
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It says a good bit about a person's character when they call or don't call a foul on themselves that someone else can't possibly see. Sometimes only someone in the absolute perfect position or the player knows they fouled like touching a cue ball without moving it. Unless the other player or the referee is at a perfect right angle to the shot, maybe only a right angle on the side they are applying side on, they can't be sure. The player knows though. It is a ball in hand foul generally, at the very least it counts as a shot, does the player call it on themselves or not? Often players don't and it isn't the kind of thing that particularly lowers my opinion of a person if they don't, but it does raise my opinion of a person when they do.

Hu
 
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