Would the situation be handled differently in the APA World Amateur Championships?
APA rule question
- Thread starter easy-e
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Its not for you. I get it.
Lots of people play and enjoy it. No one is suggesting APA is to be confused with the highest levels of pool. They make rules that serve to try and make it easier for all concerned. If you can't see the bigger picture the way the league sees it, that's ok too. Dealing with large groups of people, many drinking alcohol, often in bars. Eliminate any potential for conflict, if possible. For the benefit of all who participate.
Marking a pocket is such a non issue. If you can't envision a scenario with people drinking in a bar and claiming they pointed at a different pocket than what you think they pointed at, especially in a competitive scenario, you must play in a different world than I do. And APA isn't the only league that requires the pocket be marked, TAP does as well, but no one is here complaining about their silly rules... And how freaking difficult is it to lay something down near the pocket you're shooting at? Seriously. What is the major inconvenience? I realize that in non league play, I don't care, either, and trust to be able to work it out with whoever I'm playing. But again, trying to eliminate potential points of conflict, when marking it, there is no question which pocket was intended.
I realize this won't satisfy you. But managing a league the size and scope of APA requires some consistency and attempt to make it as smooth as possible.
In theory, sure.
In a bar, in a bar league.... well, it could work. But I've seen plenty of lesser issues become big conflicts. Because... people.
It's not how hard it is to mark the pocket that I find issue with, it's the whole point that they think it's needed. It's not hard to pick up someone else's trash off the street either, but the point is that the person should not drop trash in the first place and there are laws about littering. I don't like the rule in TAP either, but their other rules are better done than the APA and respects the players more. I mean basically the APA gave up and is admitting it's filled with drunks that can't keep rules straight. It's a bit secondary to the sandbagging issues anyway, I'd take all the rules silliness if they could actually start to punish the people cheating.
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I think most other cue ball only foul rules allow a single ball to be moved by accident. Move 2 or more balls and it becomes a foul. Even if APA is supposed to be a fun league there has to be a point where players start to accept responsibility for rearranging the table.
Wouldn't that be nice? No need for rules at all. If you take away the need for game results to be compared apples-to-apples (even in the absence of any handicap system this is necessary), the main purpose of rules is to keep order, to keep one party from taking advantage of another and to deliver on what was promised (that actually falls into the "taking advantage" part too). You said it yourself, "based on how nice they are". I believe the presumption in that statement is that some people are nicer than others. So you need rules to keep the not-so-nice people (adults or children, this applies to everyone) from taking advantage of the nicer ones. Unfortunate, but necessary.
If the situation doesn't affect the apples-to-apples comparison, why not resolve it if you can in a way that favors neither player? In other words, why is BIH or loss of game necessary? Why would player 1 DESERVE that advantage? He's the one who scratched while the action was live.
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Not that I know of.
The rules don't require it. The rules say if you don't and your opponent is a nit and calls loss of game, you lose. What was that you were saying earlier about taking responsibility for your actions?
Personally, I don't like the rule either. But I understand it and have to enforce it. I would prefer it be written like this: "You must indicate the intended pocket for the 8-Ball, preferably with a physical marker. If there is no physical marker and your opponent challenges the intended pocket, you lose the game." Then the nit actually needs to lie to steal the game. When I'm playing, I never take a game that way. It's unsportsmanlike. If I'm unsure which was the intended pocket, I'll ask the shooter and go with what they tell me. If they feel the need to lie, so be it. It's not life or death.
Why wow? When a player moves balls by accident or mistake (see how much of a pain it is to appease those who think THAT distinction is important?), the opponent puts them back. If there's a dedicated referee (I think there's a dedicated ref for each table in the last four rounds), it's possible that they might perform this action. I don't know for sure, though.
Sure you can rake a big cluster, but there is a penalty. That action is neither a mistake nor an accident, though you may claim it was. It's unsportsmanlike and should be reported as such. A review of the unsportsmanlike action could result in your League Operator taking away the points you won and giving them to your opponent, or worse - maybe your team forfeits all points for the night, just for having you on the roster. If it's a tournament, maybe you get disqualified. And if you habitually try to come up with stuff like this, it's only a matter of time before suspension or termination is the result. Plus your opponent is replacing the balls, so you may end up with something you like less anyway.
But then again, you can rake a big cluster under any rules. You just have to be willing to accept whatever penalty results.
Yes, negotiation and compromise. APA says that once the captains agree on a resolution, even if it's a coin flip, and continue, the resolution stands.
Player 1 gets BIH because player 2 wasn't paying attention to the game and miffed up just like player 2 originally had BIH because player 1 miffed up and scratched on their 8 ball shot.
Had that happened player 2 would have been correct in gathering balls. But we know that's not what you really meant.
These are two different situations, one is a foul involving the cue ball and the other isn't. They don't have to have the same resolution. Moving a ball by mistake or accident is apparently not seen as a punishable action in APA, while scratching is. That's their prerogative, they have their reasons for it, and in 44 years they haven't changed their minds, so I doubt anyone here, including me, would be able to do so.so the player grabs two balls off the table. to me it looks like he conceded the game for whatever reason. thats reasonable.
so now i rake all the remaining balls down table for the next rack. thats reasonable.
so since the first player didnt commit a foul then i lose the game.
yet they say you start to unscrew your cue its loss of game. suppose you were going to change shafts?
how does unscrewing your cue be loss of game but grabbing balls off the table to rack isnt.
so now i rake all the remaining balls down table for the next rack. thats reasonable.
so since the first player didnt commit a foul then i lose the game.
yet they say you start to unscrew your cue its loss of game. suppose you were going to change shafts?
how does unscrewing your cue be loss of game but grabbing balls off the table to rack isnt.
While my own opinion is that it should be a forfeit of game, it doesn’t matter, because I don’t make the APA rules.
in my experience, after playing in APA off and on for over 10 years, this is what I have seen. In an accident/error of the sort, if the table cannot be reset to both players and captains satisfaction, the decision will gravitate to a re-rack, and replay of that game. I know that not all teams in other areas may look at things differently, but most of our players have known each other for a long time, and even though our desire to win is as strong as ever, none of us would care to win using what we would feel is an unfair advantage.
The fact that so much in the APA’s rules is left to the imagination, forces simplistic solutions to prevent hard feelings.
P.S. Just saw APA operator’s response. I guess our area is not alone.
in my experience, after playing in APA off and on for over 10 years, this is what I have seen. In an accident/error of the sort, if the table cannot be reset to both players and captains satisfaction, the decision will gravitate to a re-rack, and replay of that game. I know that not all teams in other areas may look at things differently, but most of our players have known each other for a long time, and even though our desire to win is as strong as ever, none of us would care to win using what we would feel is an unfair advantage.
The fact that so much in the APA’s rules is left to the imagination, forces simplistic solutions to prevent hard feelings.
P.S. Just saw APA operator’s response. I guess our area is not alone.
Drunken logic of the moment. The former addresses an errant termination of a playable scenario. The latter, a cheap and popular shark move that many hate. Apples and oranges in their inebriated environment.
Actual Pool Approximated
I like that one.
I don't like a rules set that includes Overies.
The rules I am accustomed to include, touching or moving another ball with cueball in hand is a foul.
I give the drunks lots of slack but playing for fun is too much of an abyss. The aspiration should be more on the order of playing to play better. Enjoy that if you like but please get the pool happening.