APA, FARGO and the death of 8 ball.....

[Jimmorrison]

I get it and appreciate your feelings since they are similar to mine.

The real pisser for me about the APA. My rank of 8/6 was from 2002 when I stopped playing APA and moved back to Chicago. There I played ACS and loved it. Best handicap system of any league.

Anyway fast forward to 2023 and I try to get on an APA team and no one wants me due to the high rank. So I contact the APA and ask for some relief. Hell I was 70 years old then and have tremors in my right arm along with other health issues. None are going to kill me but the tremors has affected my stroke.

The APA could care less and refuse my request, telling me my rank will be what it is once I get back to playing. They didn’t care a bit that no team would take me. That was the end for me.

Tried TAP and that was a shitshow for different reasons. Now at 71 I hardly play and am selling off cues and pool items.

I still have a lot of stuff and hope my interest in playing comes back soon.

If you think you might enjoy VNEA 8-ball, the system would work for you. Handicaps are a running average, based only on your performance in the current season. All new players have to play as a ten, for the first two weeks. After that, it’s just how many points you score.
As with any league, it just depends on the group. Good people for teammates, and not too many jerks in the overall group.

 

[Quesports]

If you think you might enjoy VNEA 8-ball, the system would work for you. Handicaps are a running average, based only on your performance in the current season. All new players have to play as a ten, for the first two weeks. After that, it’s just how many points you score.
As with any league, it just depends on the group. Good people for teammates, and not too many jerks in the overall group.

APA and TAP are it here. Both are virtually identical and I am tapped out on both!

Worse than the leagues are the pool halls. They blast the music at ridiculous levels claiming they sell more alcohol. So to them more alcohol sales is more important than pool. It’s so loud you cannot have a converation unless you yell at each other.

I put an OSHA decibel app on my phone it registered 128 decibels one night.

I play the only place that caters to pool players The Brass Tap in Raleigh.

Thanks for the suggestion it’s appreciated!

 

[Dunnn51]

I get it and appreciate your feelings since they are similar to mine.

The real pisser for me about the APA. My rank of 8/6 was from 2002 when I stopped playing APA and moved back to Chicago. There I played ACS and loved it. Best handicap system of any league.

Anyway fast forward to 2023 and I try to get on an APA team and no one wants me due to the high rank. So I contact the APA and ask for some relief. Hell I was 70 years old then and have tremors in my right arm along with other health issues. None are going to kill me but the tremors has affected my stroke.

The APA could care less and refuse my request, telling me my rank will be what it is once I get back to playing. They didn’t care a bit that no team would take me. That was the end for me.

Tried TAP and that was a shitshow for different reasons. Now at 71 I hardly play and am selling off cues and pool items.

I still have a lot of stuff and hope my interest in playing comes back soon.

I hear ya, you got 10 on me.
Are there a few rooms around nearby?? Seems an older gentleman always gets the attention of others our age and a few kids as well. I just got tired of taking on the hard matches b/c no one else wanted to play in spot 1, or spot 4 or whatever. Then there were the stoners who slammed the balls as hard as they could. The stubborn Females who already knew everything and needed no help, (I guess they made SL2 all by themselves). Non payment,.... I could go on & on......
It is sad that you find little pleasure playing now. I know a few guys who meet regular and have ben playing for years!

 

[hang-the-9]

APA sandbagging has been a long tolerated part of the program. The APA essentially ignores it until it gets to the national level. It is the same with TAP. The irony is the sandbaggers are almost always the higher skill level player. They have the skill to sandbag.

It would help to know exactly which league the OP is referring to. That should be fairly easy to figure out, state the location of where this league plays. Then the discussion can be more focused..

I've seen a guy with an over 600 Fargo that was an APA 5 on a finals streaming table in Vegas. He did not play that match, someone looked him up in the Fargo system, he was the team captain. They said something in chat, but I am betting that not a single person from the APA ever looked into it. They are too busy moderating for people that say "so and so is a bad shooter" rather than looking for cheaters.

 

[hang-the-9]

What I meant was, shouldn’t the all-time results of SL2 vs SL9 matches be approximately evenly split? Meaning about half the time the 2 wins, and half the time the 9 wins? You agreed that is the goal of a handicapping system. But later you said the 2s have an edge, so maybe I’m still not understanding the APA system.

The 2 would need to rely on luck and the 9 would have to be playing badly to have an even match, mostly due to points the APA uses vs games won. Just hanging up a 9 ball is only 2 points, and a normal 9 should be able to keep the 2 from having any easy shots if the 9 is playing their normal game at least. Most of my losses using real rules 9 ball against players equal to an APA 2 or 3 are on the 8 or 9 ball, or if the other player has a lucky 9 ball crapped in. But then it's an outright loss of game, not just a few points I can make up next game like in the APA. I could probably lose every game on the 9 ball and still beat a 2 or a 3 by simply getting the other 8 points in a rack.

 

[Quesports]

The 2 would need to rely on luck and the 9 would have to be playing badly to have an even match, mostly due to points the APA uses vs games won. Just hanging up a 9 ball is only 2 points, and a normal 9 should be able to keep the 2 from having any easy shots if the 9 is playing their normal game at least. Most of my losses using real rules 9 ball against players equal to an APA 2 or 3 are on the 8 or 9 ball, or if the other player has a lucky 9 ball crapped in. But then it's an outright loss of game, not just a few points I can make up next I

game like in the APA. I could probably lose every game on the 9 ball and still beat a 2 or a 3 by simply getting the other 8 points in a rack.

If you have not watched the APA finals match between a handicap 2 and a handicap 9, it matches what you stated to a tee. The 2 won fairly easily due to mistakes by the 9. He seemed unable to make good choices and when the 2 missed he was left awkward shots. He should have played far more safeties, two way shots and just ducked on many shots.

 

[APA Operator]

I've seen a guy with an over 600 Fargo that was an APA 5 on a finals streaming table in Vegas. He did not play that match, someone looked him up in the Fargo system, he was the team captain. They said something in chat, but I am betting that not a single person from the APA ever looked into it. They are too busy moderating for people that say "so and so is a bad shooter" rather than looking for cheaters.

Did you see him play, or look him up yourself? Or are you just taking the word of someone on the internet because they said the magic word? I will take your bet, I bet some people at APA looked into him before he ever got to Vegas, looked into him after every match he played there, then looked again afterwards.

 

[hang-the-9]

Did you see him play, or look him up yourself? Or are you just taking the word of someone on the internet because they said the magic word? I will take your bet, I bet some people at APA looked into him before he ever got to Vegas, looked into him after every match he played there, then looked again afterwards.

You don't become a 600+ in Fargo by accident, and that is so far over a 5 that even the APA officials should see that clearly and disqualify the team. Seeing how he was playing is useless because a team captain that got a team to the APA national final table would not be stupid enough to run racks out in public in Vegas, more than is absolutely needed to stay ahead a few points. What you need to do is see how he plays when he thinks no one can do anything about it. Which is how you get a 5 with a 630 Fargo. Sandbagging is easy even without a loss or with people watching, just miss a few times playing two way shots leaving the other player hooked. A 600 Fargo can do that easily. And a 5 may be able to run out every so often, so just do that every 10 racks or so and chalk it up to "luck" or "I got a hot streak".

I used my own eyes to look up his name after the person in the chat brought up that fact. I have also talked recently to several players on a team in TN that have told me they dumped matches to drop down levels after they went up. Like an APA 3 was running 5-6-7 balls in rotation every time at the table, and another 5 was even better, he said he went up to a 6 and then had to dump a bunch of games to drop back to a 5. I mean what kind of APA 3 is upset because they did not run out a rack every game? One that is not a real 3, a 3 will be happy to run 3 balls in a row, and if they get to 4 it's a once in a blue moon occurance with random position and speed.

Pretending the APA does not have a major cheating problem needs as much ignoring of reality as the arguments flat earthers put out. Easily 25% of players are a level or two under their skill, on purpose. Every pool hall I have been has a known set of teams that sandbag and plan who will lose. People say things like "I don't want to be a 5" like it's something they control instead of just playing and getting a rating based on that whatever it may end up being.

Heck, like 10 years ago I went to a new pool hall for me in my area, the very first person I played there was in the APA and when I asked him his skill level after seeing how he played he said "5" with a shrug and laugh about that skill level with a "oh well, you know..." comment LOL. He was pretty much as good as I was and I would be maxed out in the APA by what everyone tells me. People know, and people know they know and others know, but it stops at the point of actually doing something about it.

 

[trob]

If you have not watched the APA finals match between a handicap 2 and a handicap 9, it matches what you stated to a tee. The 2 won fairly easily due to mistakes by the 9. He seemed unable to make good choices and when the 2 missed he was left awkward shots. He should have played far more safeties, two way shots and just ducked on many shots.

Like I described in an earlier post a few mistakes and your In trouble. He scratched 4 times I believe. Even a 2 will make a ball or 2 with ball in hand. I believe he dogged an 8 leaving an easy 8 and 9 plus the break where the cue ball got kicked in and the 2 rolled to the side pocket , the 9 rolled to the corner pocket and the 3 rolled right up against it lol then she also made a ball on the break. That’s a quick 4 points. That can change a match quickly when someone only needs 18 points.

 

[trob]

You don't become a 600+ in Fargo by accident, and that is so far over a 5 that even the APA officials should see that clearly and disqualify the team. Seeing how he was playing is useless because a team captain that got a team to the APA national final table would not be stupid enough to run racks out in public in Vegas, more than is absolutely needed to stay ahead a few points. What you need to do is see how he plays when he thinks no one can do anything about it. Which is how you get a 5 with a 630 Fargo. Sandbagging is easy even without a loss or with people watching, just miss a few times playing two way shots leaving the other player hooked. A 600 Fargo can do that easily. And a 5 may be able to run out every so often, so just do that every 10 racks or so and chalk it up to "luck" or "I got a hot streak".

I used my own eyes to look up his name after the person in the chat brought up that fact. I have also talked recently to several players on a team in TN that have told me they dumped matches to drop down levels after they went up. Like an APA 3 was running 5-6-7 balls in rotation every time at the table, and another 5 was even better, he said he went up to a 6 and then had to dump a bunch of games to drop back to a 5. I mean what kind of APA 3 is upset because they did not run out a rack every game? One that is not a real 3, a 3 will be happy to run 3 balls in a row, and if they get to 4 it's a once in a blue moon occurance with random position and speed.

Pretending the APA does not have a major cheating problem needs as much ignoring of reality as the arguments flat earthers put out. Easily 25% of players are a level or two under their skill, on purpose. Every pool hall I have been has a known set of teams that sandbag and plan who will lose. People say things like "I don't want to be a 5" like it's something they control instead of just playing and getting a rating based on that whatever it may end up being.

Heck, like 10 years ago I went to a new pool hall for me in my area, the very first person I played there was in the APA and when I asked him his skill level after seeing how he played he said "5" with a shrug and laugh about that skill level with a "oh well, you know..." comment LOL. He was pretty much as good as I was and I would be maxed out in the APA by what everyone tells me. People know, and people know they know and others know, but it stops at the point of actually doing something about it.

I don’t get it. It’s just the apa. It’s not like Vegas is expensive. I was brought in as a 7 playing 9 ball. Was an 8 after a week. Every week for that first session my captain would say that if I didn’t slow down I would be a 9 Which I did become after the first session. I remember looking him In the face and saying if you think I’ve played this game (at the time 25 years .. now almost 35 years) working hard to get as good as I can be to sand bag for a f#$#$## apa league your out of your mind. I am what I am. I never hustled and I never sand bag. all I want to do is snap knocks and cash checks I’ll never play below my speed for anyone Or any league.

 

[Quesports]

Like I described in an earlier post a few mistakes and your In trouble. He scratched 4 times I believe. Even a 2 will make a ball or 2 with ball in hand. I believe he dogged an 8 leaving an easy 8 and 9 plus the break where the cue ball got kicked in and the 2 rolled to the side pocket , the 9 rolled to the corner pocket and the 3 rolled right up against it lol then she also made a ball on the break. That’s a quick 4 points. That can change a match quickly when someone only needs 18 points.

Your correct. The best way to win a big spot against an inexperienced player is two way shots, safeties and ducking instead of taking difficult shots. Then focus like hell and bring all you got.
Happy New Year to you!

 

[buckshotshoey]

APA and TAP are it here. Both are virtually identical and I am tapped out on both!

Worse than the leagues are the pool halls. They blast the music at ridiculous levels claiming they sell more alcohol. So to them more alcohol sales is more important than pool. It’s so loud you cannot have a converation unless you yell at each other.

I put an OSHA decibel app on my phone it registered 128 decibels one night.

I play the only place that caters to pool players The Brass Tap in Raleigh.

Thanks for the suggestion it’s appreciated!

Have you given any thought to playing in an an APA masters division? No handicaps. It sounds like it was made just for you.

 

[trob]

Have you given any thought to playing in an an APA masters division? No handicaps. It sounds like it was made just for you.

Masters is My favorite league set up.

 

[Dunnn51]

Like I described in an earlier post a few mistakes and your In trouble. He scratched 4 times I believe. Even a 2 will make a ball or 2 with ball in hand. I believe he dogged an 8 leaving an easy 8 and 9 plus the break where the cue ball got kicked in and the 2 rolled to the side pocket , the 9 rolled to the corner pocket and the 3 rolled right up against it lol then she also made a ball on the break. That’s a quick 4 points. That can change a match quickly when someone only needs 18 points.

I can't believe you guys are discussing the validity of APA skill rankings! (EVERYONE knows that game).
I dunno about others rooms, but if I scratch twice in a 9-ball match at any room I play, I likely have a 90% probability I lost.

Yes, I watch that match and kept wondering WHY he wasn't playing safe. Granted he was on a new table, but a SL9 should be able to adapt to a new table very quickly. Against a SL2 in a match I figure I will scratch once , and rattle once yielding my opp 4pts. I can only allow that once at best.
This "9" has a 640 Fargo and doesn't play safe and leave a SL2 long on the table??? Not doing that makes no sense!

 

[trob]

I can't believe you guys are discussing the validity of APA skill rankings! (EVERYONE knows that game).
I dunno about others rooms, but if I scratch twice in a 9-ball match at any room I play, I likely have a 90% probability I lost.

Yes, I watch that match and kept wondering WHY he wasn't playing safe. Granted he was on a new table, but a SL9 should be able to adapt to a new table very quickly. Against a SL2 in a match I figure I will scratch once , and rattle once yielding my opp 4pts. I can only allow that once at best.
This "9" has a 640 Fargo and doesn't play safe and leave a SL2 long on the table??? Not doing that makes no sense!

Because it’s a pool forum and discussing pool things is what you do lol

 

[trob]

I can't believe you guys are discussing the validity of APA skill rankings! (EVERYONE knows that game).
I dunno about others rooms, but if I scratch twice in a 9-ball match at any room I play, I likely have a 90% probability I lost.

Yes, I watch that match and kept wondering WHY he wasn't playing safe. Granted he was on a new table, but a SL9 should be able to adapt to a new table very quickly. Against a SL2 in a match I figure I will scratch once , and rattle once yielding my opp 4pts. I can only allow that once at best.
This "9" has a 640 Fargo and doesn't play safe and leave a SL2 long on the table??? Not doing that makes no sense!

Be your not adding in the stress and pressure for a regular guy. 20k on the line , your team counting on you, an arena of people. It’s usually standing room only. A lot of people watching on the internet. Eva mataya at the commentating plus no one wants to lose to a 2. Maybe that wouldn’t bother you but an average player that can cause you to do some stupid stuff

 

[hang-the-9]

I can't believe you guys are discussing the validity of APA skill rankings! (EVERYONE knows that game).
I dunno about others rooms, but if I scratch twice in a 9-ball match at any room I play, I likely have a 90% probability I lost.

Yes, I watch that match and kept wondering WHY he wasn't playing safe. Granted he was on a new table, but a SL9 should be able to adapt to a new table very quickly. Against a SL2 in a match I figure I will scratch once , and rattle once yielding my opp 4pts. I can only allow that once at best.
This "9" has a 640 Fargo and doesn't play safe and leave a SL2 long on the table??? Not doing that makes no sense!

He did not play like a 640 at all that match. But then it's the finals and he is facing a huge uphill battle and has pressure to not makes mistakes. Brain scattered. At their normal games, even with the spot, the higher level wins most of the time, like 80% probably. With even a few extra mistakes from the better player and some luck and crapped in balls by the lower level, that all changes.

 

[smiling_Hans]

APA sucks it seems.

I guess I'm not the only who was rejected by teams because I was too high.

"Hey I'm interested in joining your team."

Idiot: "You're too high. I've seen you play over there at the big tables."

"Perfect. I can help us win."

Idiot: "We want a very low level player>"

"L-O-L"

To be honest people playing in this league are playing because they don't want to go home. This is like social hour for them or how they socialize. Same players every year but no improvement. They prey on the new players or people who have never held a cue and promise them glory. There is no glory. Teams barely break even all in the name of having fun. Nobody looks to have fun and always moping and crying about what we are talking about here and that is rating. It's the modern day shuffle board league.

League operators making easy money since the leagues practically run themselves. Sometimes you have to pick up the phone and tell them where to play. Some administrative work and once a year you give them trophies for them to feel good about themselves.

Ask yourself this what is their mission objective?

 

[hang-the-9]

APA sucks it seems.

I guess I'm not the only who was rejected by teams because I was too high.

"Hey I'm interested in joining your team."

Idiot: "You're too high. I've seen you play over there at the big tables."

"Perfect. I can help us win."

Idiot: "We want a very low level player>"

"L-O-L"

There is a team point limit for players. Teams want lower handicaps to keep under the cap and be able to play the matches they need. They also want unknown players that they can sandbag with, it's hard to do that with a 7, but easy with some player that shoots like a 5 but will start as a 3 and can try to stay a 3.

 

[Dunnn51]

Be your not adding in the stress and pressure for a regular guy. 20k on the line , your team counting on you, an arena of people. It’s usually standing room only. A lot of people watching on the internet. Eva mataya at the commentating plus no one wants to lose to a 2. Maybe that wouldn’t bother you but an average player that can cause you to do some stupid stuff

Granted, the pressure is high BUT you/he should be able to fade at least some of that. Didn't he and his team go through tri-cups, and at least five rounds of play in Vega$ to get there?? Still, that does not explain his choices/strategy. Did he get his team to finals on pure luck?? I think NOT. Even a "good" SL2 is not going to make a table length cut shot more than 33% of the time. I play a SL2, I'm either potting balls in my pattern, playing SAFE, or at a minimum leaving whitey on the rail for them.