STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects

It was probably 12 years or so ago that I was sitting in the 14.1 High Run Room at the DCC waiting for my turn.

John Schmidt was sitting next to me and we were talking about this and that and I said at one point, "You know, several guys on line are talking about looking at the CB last when shooting." And John said, "Lou, you're a good enough player to know better than that."

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
It was probably 12 years or so ago that I was sitting in the 14.1 High Run Room at the DCC waiting for my turn.

John Schmidt was sitting next to me and we were talking about this and that and I said at one point, "You know, several guys on line are talking about looking at the CB last when shooting." And John said, "Lou, you're a good enough player to know better than that."

Lou Figueroa
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That's funny stuff. Funny part is that Neither Stephen Hendry or Ronnie O'Sullivan "know better". FUNNY.
 
DeadStick said:
Actually, that is the typical recommendation - use CBL only when tip contact accuracy is the priority, like CB frozen to a rail, elevated over a blocking ball, jump shots, break shots, etc.

I did that for 30 years with success. But lately I've found that doing CBL on every shot hasn't hurt my make rate, and has helped me get precise tip contact accuracy on every shot and put more focus on the CB on its way to the object ball. I've made the CB my target.

The only thing the jury is still out for, for me, is speed control. Part of me thinks I may have had better speed control with OBL since I have a more encompassing view of the entire shot, so I've been experimenting going back to that for a rack or two at a time.
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After my oh-so-brief trial run of CB-last shooting speed control was by far the biggest negative. Pocketing was a tad worse than OB-last but speed was non-existent. With all players there is RAPID back-n-forth eye movement just before sending it. How many CB-last'rs can flatly state that is what they're doing when pulling the trigger? I ask this because its real easy to 'feel' you're doing it where in fact you may not. Either way it doesn't matter i just wish CB-last players would stop trying to convince the rest that its a better way to shoot. Its not.
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a new video that debunks many common myths and misconceptions concerning stroke timing and acceleration and their effects on cue tip contact time and shot action.


Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:24 - Common Myths
1:58 - Tip Contact Time
3:22 - Stroke Acceleration
5:47 - The Study
6:30 - Results and Conclusions
8:45 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
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Getting back to the original topic of the thread, does anybody have any other comments or questions about the stroke timing video?
 
gregcantrall said:
That's funny stuff. Funny part is that Neither Stephen Hendry or Ronnie O'Sullivan "know better". FUNNY.
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The strongest argument for cue ball last is that with comparatively few using it, those few have became champions and legends.

To say cue ball last can't work is obviously wrong. I won't try to say what is the best way, either way or as I mentioned neither, can work just fine. If I find it awkward and a bit of a pain in the neck to look at the cue ball or object ball I pick a point somewhere on the path or extended path of the cue ball. Works just fine!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
The strongest argument for cue ball last is that with comparatively few using it, those few have became champions and legends.

To say cue ball last can't work is obviously wrong. I won't try to say what is the best way, either way or as I mentioned neither, can work just fine. If I find it awkward and a bit of a pain in the neck to look at the cue ball or object ball I pick a point somewhere on the path or extended path of the cue ball. Works just fine!

Hu
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Haven't followed the whole CB-last thing but just who are the 'confirmed' CB last players that are WC's in their respective games? Best pure 'pocketer' i've ever watched is O'Sullivan and he clearly is OB last player. I've slowed plenty of his shots just to check and his eyes are on the OB when he sends it. Again, LOT of back-n-forth but at the moment he strikes he's on the OB.
 
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garczar said:
Haven't followed the whole CB-last thing but just who are the 'confirmed' CB last players that are WC's in their respective games? Best pure 'pocketer' i've ever watched is O'Sullivan and he clearly is OB last player. I've slowed plenty of his shots just to check and his eyes are on the OB when he sends it. Again, LOT of back-n-forth but at the moment he strikes he's on the OB.
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Ralf Souquet has his share of wins and was ranked number one in the world using cueball last.

I'm much more of a "quiet eye" practitioner than a believer in quick eye movements regardless of pursuit. Sometimes I do have to move eyes more rapidly than others depending on what I am doing but I have never found rapider movements than necessary to be an advantage. In pool with nothing moving until we put things in motion eye movement can be as leisurely as we desire.

Aside from anything else, when I looked into where player's eyes were at a decade ago more or less I saw video clearly reveal that some of the "object ball last" pro's who advocated that shifted their eyes to the cue ball as the stick started forward the final time. Not uncommon for people to be unaware of what they are doing themselves until they see it on video. I walked behind forty-eight shooters on a firing line one day. There might have been a couple at most that said they shot any way but free recoil. I observed forty-five of them that weren't shooting free recoil! I glued a tiny piece of very soft foam rubber to my butt plate for the rest of that event and until I made very sure I was consistently shooting free recoil.

Both pool techniques have merits and disadvantages. Shooting with the cue ball frozen or near frozen on the rail I'll be using cue ball last usually since I often can't get both balls in view at the same time. I will almost certainly be using a slipstroke too, something that makes that awkward shot feel more natural.

There isn't just one way to pool heaven. If there were we would all be doing the same thing. Instead, humans are very poorly designed to shoot pool. Our workarounds make pool interesting.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Ralf Souquet has his share of wins and was ranked number one in the world using cueball last.

I'm much more of a "quiet eye" practitioner than a believer in quick eye movements regardless of pursuit. Sometimes I do have to move eyes more rapidly than others depending on what I am doing but I have never found rapider movements than necessary to be an advantage. In pool with nothing moving until we put things in motion eye movement can be as leisurely as we desire.

Aside from anything else, when I looked into where player's eyes were at a decade ago more or less I saw video clearly reveal that some of the "object ball last" pro's who advocated that shifted their eyes to the cue ball as the stick started forward the final time. Not uncommon for people to be unaware of what they are doing themselves until they see it on video. I walked behind forty-eight shooters on a firing line one day. There might have been a couple at most that said they shot any way but free recoil. I observed forty-five of them that weren't shooting free recoil! I glued a tiny piece of very soft foam rubber to my butt plate for the rest of that event and until I made very sure I was consistently shooting free recoil.

Both pool techniques have merits and disadvantages. Shooting with the cue ball frozen or near frozen on the rail I'll be using cue ball last usually since I often can't get both balls in view at the same time. I will almost certainly be using a slipstroke too, something that makes that awkward shot feel more natural.

There isn't just one way to pool heaven. If there were we would all be doing the same thing. Instead, humans are very poorly designed to shoot pool. Our workarounds make pool interesting.

Hu
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Got me curious so i went and slowed some hi-def video of Ralf. Sure looks OB last to me. Maybe he switched from the dark side to the light. ;)
 
ShootingArts said:
won't try to say what is the best way,
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Ed Zackary! 😉 Stephen Hendry even opined that he doesn't think a person could switch.
I switched when after a break of years, I couldn't play to the level I had attained in my early play. I still don't play to that level but there are age related excuses available for that. 😉
I now feel that I am capable of better cueball control, provided I keep my mind and body under control. 🤷‍♂️
Besides I have beaten John Schmidt in a tournament. And and Steve Mizerack too. 😉 Didn't ask either which ball they were looking at. Hmmm, oh wait they never got to the table so, What does it matter? 😉 🤷‍♂️
 
garczar said:
Best pure 'pocketer' i've ever watched is O'Sullivan and he clearly is OB last player.
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I ain't gonna look it up, yet but Ronnie around 12 years ago was asked which ball on a shot they had just viewed. Ronnie's answered was in the vein of, "I am not sure. It could be either on a given shot." In interview much more recently Stephen Hendry says Ronnie looks at the white last. I don't know what Stephen based that on but given his extensive work in commentary after his GOAT playing career, I trust his statement. I have spent lots of time watching Ronnie's eye pattern and very few could I be sure. The break off is the easiest for me to read. He does have a rapid eye pattern. Go figure, with a 5 minute maxi and Rocket nickname. 🤷‍♂️
 
pvc lou said:
You sure got your panties knotted up over it. lol
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No at all. I don't give a flying fk what anyone does just don't spend YEARS trying to convince everyone else that's how we should play. Really glad you care tho. Means a lot. Right.
 
Based on the logic of what other people have alluded to, that being throwing darts, bowling, and just about every other sport, the athlete always seems to look at the destination last tgat they are going to, and not the object they are propelling. It just seems like common sense to me too look at the object ball last and not the cue ball. I think that anybody who looks at the cue ball last would be considered an anomaly or such. I would never teach cue ball last if I were a teacher.
 
dr_dave said:
Getting back to the original topic of the thread, does anybody have any other comments or questions about the stroke timing video?
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I think the benefit of “smooth acceleration” as stroke advice is that it’s a more simple command for your brain to tell your body to execute, compared to trying to decelerate or hold a constant speed with a cue.

There’s 100+ muscles that have to fire (or definitively NOT fire) just right, with little margin for error, on any pool shot, so it’s best to at least start out with the simplest set of instructions.
 
SeniorTom said:
Based on the logic of what other people have alluded to, that being throwing darts, bowling, and just about every other sport, the athlete always seems to aim at the destination they are going to, and not the object they are propelling. It just seems like common sense to me too look at the object ball last and not the cue ball. I think that anybody who looks at the cue ball last would be considered an anomaly or such. I would never teach cue ball last if I were a teacher.
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The sports you mentioned don't involve striking a ball with something. If you want some closer comparisons, try golf or tennis.
 
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