Now you're stepping into philosophical waters. Are you really uninterested, or by commenting did you show that you're interested? Sorting that out -- I'll pass.
Players of the past and their Fargo...
- Thread starter billb
- Start date
Many loved Mizerak. I think he was one player truly trapped between the 14.1 and 9 Ball eras. Great player no doubt, but most of his heavy lifting was done while playing 14.1.
A big skill difference I see comparing eras is kicking and breaking.
Today's top guys kick so well they are playing to kick safe, or at least trying to separate the cue and object ball as much as possible. In the old days, they mostly kicked hard and hoped to get lucky.
Similarly, the break was always as hard as you can and squat the cue. Today's players are trying to execute something specific depending on how the table is breaking.
Those two things may not seem that large, but when two players are capable of consistently running out, every seemingly small advantage is amplified.
The old guys would need to quickly incorporate these skills into their games to be competitive.
Today's top guys kick so well they are playing to kick safe, or at least trying to separate the cue and object ball as much as possible. In the old days, they mostly kicked hard and hoped to get lucky.
Similarly, the break was always as hard as you can and squat the cue. Today's players are trying to execute something specific depending on how the table is breaking.
Those two things may not seem that large, but when two players are capable of consistently running out, every seemingly small advantage is amplified.
The old guys would need to quickly incorporate these skills into their games to be competitive.
I agree here, but I think the players of old could adjust to the break relatively easily. Kicking and safety play would be harder. That to me is the biggest difference. Today’s players are significantly better. But Efren was pretty good as the first to really incorporate it.
Bringing the new guys to back then. If they played 2 foul the kicking and safeties would be mostly irrelevant. One reason why the older players were not as good at it. As to breaking, The young guys might throw a fit when confronting opponents racking on slow cloth.
Hard to compare eras. But guys with good strokes and fundamentals back then would do pretty well now I think.
Absolutely!
Strickland, Efren, Busty, Mosconi, Worst, Hall, Sigel, Parica, Varner, Archer
To think these generational players wouldn't be every bit as good as today's top 10 players is ludicrous, IMO. All 830 and above in today's scale.
The human body has not evolved in tens and tens and tens of thousands of years. That means there is zero a gifted player today can stroke that a gifted player from the past could not.
Any knowledge gap between yesterday's players (which is really only related to reading the rack and the jump cue) would take a couple days for them to master. They all knew how to kick just fine as well.
Strickland, Efren, Busty, Mosconi, Worst, Hall, Sigel, Parica, Varner, Archer
To think these generational players wouldn't be every bit as good as today's top 10 players is ludicrous, IMO. All 830 and above in today's scale.
The human body has not evolved in tens and tens and tens of thousands of years. That means there is zero a gifted player today can stroke that a gifted player from the past could not.
Any knowledge gap between yesterday's players (which is really only related to reading the rack and the jump cue) would take a couple days for them to master. They all knew how to kick just fine as well.
Kicking is a moot point. A bunch of the older generation played one hole, where you had to kick at specific sides of the balls all the time. Efren didn't invent the kicking game.
Plus, take Harold Worst, he was a 3 Cushion champion. He could have probably outkicked any living pool pro today!
Plus, take Harold Worst, he was a 3 Cushion champion. He could have probably outkicked any living pool pro today!
Here is my take on the OP's list, with the top 30 today for comparison. Note on today's list, a few players are lower than their peaks, such as Dennis, Alex, Neils, Corteza, etc.
Specifically, in no particular order, players like:
840's Strickland
840's Archer
820's Varner
840's Hall
780 Pierce
790 McCready
830's Sigel
820's Rempe
800's Ginky
840's Reyes (at his peak)
840's Bustamante
840's Parica
800's Hatch
780 Coltrain
830's Mizerak
810's Hopkins
Specifically, in no particular order, players like:
840's Strickland
840's Archer
820's Varner
840's Hall
780 Pierce
790 McCready
830's Sigel
820's Rempe
800's Ginky
840's Reyes (at his peak)
840's Bustamante
840's Parica
800's Hatch
780 Coltrain
830's Mizerak
810's Hopkins
I like those numbers. Mine would be almost the same.
Also, don't forget jumping. Today's guys with today's technology are deadly accurate. Shaw and Gorst may jump better than me shooting level!
I'm an old schooler, but I just can't convince myself that the best of the last generation were as good as the best of this one.
Yes, Sigel, Varner and Earl would have won some titles if they had played in this era.
The depth of fields today greatly eclipses those of even ten years ago and comparing the depth of fields today to the 1980's and 1990s is silly.
Winning majors is soooo difficult today and yet there is a guy who, at 26 years old, has a resume of major titles that is simply mind-blowing, one that eclipses the resume of over 95% of those already in the BCA Hall of Fame.
Let me be the first on this forum to suggest that Josh Filler is the best player of all time.
Yes, Sigel, Varner and Earl would have won some titles if they had played in this era.
The depth of fields today greatly eclipses those of even ten years ago and comparing the depth of fields today to the 1980's and 1990s is silly.
Winning majors is soooo difficult today and yet there is a guy who, at 26 years old, has a resume of major titles that is simply mind-blowing, one that eclipses the resume of over 95% of those already in the BCA Hall of Fame.
Let me be the first on this forum to suggest that Josh Filler is the best player of all time.
I think his peak was the early 80’s.
One pocket was his main game from what I’ve heard. Steve Cook beat him 12k in the 90’s playing one pocket though. They were talking about it in a legends of one pocket match. So who knows…
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
I agree, but I think one thing may be true about today's players vs past is they probably are in better physical condition compared to days past.
Almost all of the the Accu-stats games shows players sitting at their tables smoking when they weren't up at the table shooting. It looks like today's players (especially the European players) look to be in fine form. Probably due to gym work out and the like. Gone are the days of Babe Ruth walking out on the playing field eating a hot dog! I think this goes for all sports was well not just pool.
As for the rest, it's the old Marciano vs Ali, thing we'll never really know. The only thing I will say that a vintage Earl's A game would have been right up there with Filler and Gorst.
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Pool is now a global entertainment sport sponsored by Matchroom for nineball.
In terms of comparing countries Germany has been the strongest with the best sponsored government program.
However USA produces different types of pool players, they may not be in the discussion for titles.
America could be called the fundraising tour, you fight your way through America to earn your home country sponsorships.
It is well known countries can buy titles and deter other athletes from participating in competition.
Today's pool players have social media metrics to worry about. Jayson Shaw is winning he has better coverage than SVB and Joshua globally.
To bring the talk back to Fargo, Jayson is promoting the game to wider more culturally aware audience. Strickland got to ride the Color of Money promotion. Who is better the player who brings in more fans and more investors?
Florian was the biggest pool star before pool went big on the net. Today social media rankings are fought daily.
Fargo rate is a good discussion for coaches not pool as part of a global market.
The only thing baseball sold with their stats are spreadsheets and computers.
In terms of comparing countries Germany has been the strongest with the best sponsored government program.
However USA produces different types of pool players, they may not be in the discussion for titles.
America could be called the fundraising tour, you fight your way through America to earn your home country sponsorships.
It is well known countries can buy titles and deter other athletes from participating in competition.
Today's pool players have social media metrics to worry about. Jayson Shaw is winning he has better coverage than SVB and Joshua globally.
To bring the talk back to Fargo, Jayson is promoting the game to wider more culturally aware audience. Strickland got to ride the Color of Money promotion. Who is better the player who brings in more fans and more investors?
Florian was the biggest pool star before pool went big on the net. Today social media rankings are fought daily.
Fargo rate is a good discussion for coaches not pool as part of a global market.
The only thing baseball sold with their stats are spreadsheets and computers.
8intheside
Well-known member
i think the very top now play better than the very top of way back when. and whether they could catch up i dont know or anyone else.
but they are also playing a very different game with different rules and equipment.
take the new guys back to shootout nine ball and face eddie taylor who shoots out to a bank he can make every time and the others sometimes.
see how they do.
see how they do against the top straight pool players that played position within inches as the balls didnt break open, so you made a few and kicked out a few more each rack. not blasted them and they flew open. new guys shoot better than the old schoolers for sure.\
play against the old money players who played for 24 hours straight and under pressure with spectators making sounds and sharking them.
and no jump sticks. no special chalk, no super tips or black shafts. no airconditioning with sweaty hands, and balls as they were not polished or rarely cleaned.
its all different. in a tightly controlled tournament with near perfect conditions the new players are better for sure. plus the pool of players is worldwide instead of in the u.s. of 1960 of 180 million people.
even then in straight pool the guys ran just as many or more than nowadays starting out cold in a game.
the videos you see of the great old timers were when they were old.
but they are also playing a very different game with different rules and equipment.
take the new guys back to shootout nine ball and face eddie taylor who shoots out to a bank he can make every time and the others sometimes.
see how they do.
see how they do against the top straight pool players that played position within inches as the balls didnt break open, so you made a few and kicked out a few more each rack. not blasted them and they flew open. new guys shoot better than the old schoolers for sure.\
play against the old money players who played for 24 hours straight and under pressure with spectators making sounds and sharking them.
and no jump sticks. no special chalk, no super tips or black shafts. no airconditioning with sweaty hands, and balls as they were not polished or rarely cleaned.
its all different. in a tightly controlled tournament with near perfect conditions the new players are better for sure. plus the pool of players is worldwide instead of in the u.s. of 1960 of 180 million people.
even then in straight pool the guys ran just as many or more than nowadays starting out cold in a game.
the videos you see of the great old timers were when they were old.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Has anyone attempted to step backwards with known Fargo ratings? Who was the first top pro in the Fargorate era?
I'm just guessing here but say early 2000s SVB was 800. Earl got the best of him more than once, and I think that was after peak Earl. Skipping a bit, but Earl beat Mizerak in the SRO. That was pre-peak Earl and post peak Mizerak. I think that if someone took the time, they could teach a very good estimate of the ratings.
I don't think the players of today would be blowing the old school of the table, but the access to the knowledge base is a big difference. In the old days, knowledge wasn't widely shared, now, every kicking system and technique is available to view on YouTube. Today's 20 year old has been exposed to more instruction than the 35 year old of 1970. So the young player can have the understanding while still athletically young.
I'm just guessing here but say early 2000s SVB was 800. Earl got the best of him more than once, and I think that was after peak Earl. Skipping a bit, but Earl beat Mizerak in the SRO. That was pre-peak Earl and post peak Mizerak. I think that if someone took the time, they could teach a very good estimate of the ratings.
I don't think the players of today would be blowing the old school of the table, but the access to the knowledge base is a big difference. In the old days, knowledge wasn't widely shared, now, every kicking system and technique is available to view on YouTube. Today's 20 year old has been exposed to more instruction than the 35 year old of 1970. So the young player can have the understanding while still athletically young.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I've also thought about how many of the videos I watch are from finals. So I'm only watching the best players, and since they are in the finals, I'm probably seeing them on a better than average day.
That’s what I was going to add. Should be able to connect time pools just like you connect geographical pools and calculate Fargo ratings for those players using SVB I. His younger days he ties in with Earl, Archer and a lot of the pros of yesteryear. Then those players tie back to the generation before and the generation before.
I think it would be interesting to gather up all the old results available from the 1970s on and enter them into FargoRate. It could at least assign ratings to the veteran players. Would the connection hold across several decades?