Players of the past and their Fargo...

[Wayne Crimi]

The problem I have with your point about Mosconi competing against a larger number of elite players is that Mosconi competed against guys who did *nothing* but play 14.1 — guys who were total 14.1 mechanics with a depth of knowledge about the stack, patterns, and micro movements of the CB I doubt many guys have nowadays.

And, he often had to play all of them in championship tournament formats to win another title.

Lou Figueroa

I can't argue with any of that, but the championships were smaller fields back then. Sometimes they were even single challenge matches. IMO there's a better chance for the best player to get upset in a 64 man tournament double elimination with a much deeper field.

Based on what I saw at age 60+, I think some players today might underrate how good Mosconi and others of his era were even before the great players of the 70s, 80s, 90s came along, And they probably underrate those guys a bit too. It's just that now the game is more international and there's an almost endless supply of great players. If you play in a high level tournament there are almost no easy games. It's really hard to dominate. What Filler is doing is almost unbelievable.

 

[maha]

in most every sport technology gives the newer set of players a big advantage in performance.
it is hard to know what the greats of the past would be today if they had the same conditions.

golf- clubs and balls and fast greens
pole vault- the pole
football- special shoes,better field conditions and turf, etc
pool- equipment,balls,the rack,cloth, air conditioning

and most of all specialized training

 

[sjm]

in most every sport technology gives the newer set of players a big advantage in performance.
it is hard to know what the greats of the past would be today if they had the same conditions.

golf- clubs and balls and fast greens
pole vault- the pole
football- special shoes,better field conditions and turf, etc
pool- equipment,balls,the rack,cloth, air conditioning

and most of all specialized training

Great post. In every sport, the evolution of the equipment, the playing conditions, and also the instructional materials give every generation the means to eclipse the level of play of the generation that came before them.

In pool, it's even more so, and a major reason is Accu-stats. Sigel, Varner, Earl and Efren didn't have the advantage of being able to study all the great matches of the past, while the current crop of players all have the opportunity to study the play of the last generation of great players. The internet, similarly, had led to a wealth of instructional resources and materials that were unavailable to the last generation of players.

Your point is a good one, for if the superstars of yesteryear had all the tools of the trade available to the players of today, they'd have probably been much better players than they had been, and they'd be superstars today. Sticking to nine ball, there's little doubt that Sigel, Varner and Earl would have been among the top few today under those circumstances.

Still, there's little denying that we're seeing pool played at an unprecedented level of excellence and the best few are producing play the likes of which we've never seen before, and that's in spite of the fact that the game is played on very tight pockets today compared to back in the day.

I believe Filler and Gorst are going to be remembered as two of the greatest our game has ever seen, and that Filler will, at some point, be proclaimed the greatest player ever by the billiards media. Both Filler and Gorst win titles in every discipline and have a championship pedigree that is comparable to the greatest of any era.

We're lucky to get a chance to watch the kind of play that today's best are producing.

 

[Island Drive]

With all this.... who's a Fargo 800 and NOT.
The GOAT in his prime beats most all of em for the cash, no matter what century they are from.
Makes me wonder what Mosconi's 9 ball Fargo would of been.

 

[JPB2]

in most every sport technology gives the newer set of players a big advantage in performance.
it is hard to know what the greats of the past would be today if they had the same conditions.

golf- clubs and balls and fast greens
pole vault- the pole
football- special shoes,better field conditions and turf, etc
pool- equipment,balls,the rack,cloth, air conditioning

and most of all specialized training

Maybe you saw this. Someone did a biomechanics study to try to figure out what track guys from the past would do today given equipment improvements. I think they looked at Jesse Owens. The changed conditions in track made a bigger difference than I would have thought, after all running a given distance is relatively uncomplicated. I think the specialized training is really important.

 

[jay helfert]

i'll do what no one else will do and get this debate going. gonna lump these guys at their best and height of their powers into 826 plus, 800-825, 775-799. this is based off of me watching many of today's players and then watching old videos of the guys on the list you provided. just my gut. feel free to tell me i'm wrong. obviously, not alot of evidence. when i was a kid, it was johnny archer's world. so anything pre-archer, i can only go by hearsay and old videos that are low quality and table that look like they were covered in carhart overalls.

826+
strickland
reyes
archer
sigel
varner
bustamante

800-825
parica
hall
hatch

775-799
ginky
mizerak
hopkins
rempe
pierce
coltrain
mccready

Pretty good stuff here, but I'd put Parica and Hall in the top flight for sure. Hatch probably closer to the 799 or below group. Mizerak should be moved up a notch to 800+.

 

[jay helfert]

Many loved Mizerak. I think he was one player truly trapped between the 14.1 and 9 Ball eras. Great player no doubt, but most of his heavy lifting was done while playing 14.1.

Mizerak excelled at all games! He won many 9-Ball and One Pocket tournaments. He was the best player through the 1970's (along with Buddy Hall) until the maturation of Earl and the arrival of Parica and Efren. Sigel ran second to the Miz in many tournaments (not only Straight Pool) back then. He was #2.

 

[jay helfert]

I will only say this about Harold Worst. He had an aura about him that has never been matched since. He WAS THE MAN and everybody knew it, tournament champions and hustlers alike! His mantra could have been "Speak softly and carry a big stick." My guess is that he would rise to the occasion on ANY equipment and find a way to be the best. He moved with ease from World Three Cushion mastery to Pool and right away was winning major tournaments and money games with the best in the business. Pretty soon everyone was ducking him, and I mean everyone! The only new guy who did anything close was Parica. He came on the scene and dominated 9-Ball and Ten Ball for two decades. He was unquestionably #1 in the prime years of Earl, Sigel, Varner, Buddy et al. They avoided him to put it mildly.

 

[Colonel]

Pretty good stuff here, but I'd put Parica and Hall in the top flight for sure. Hatch probably closer to the 799 or below group. Mizerak should be moved up a notch to 800+.

Then there’s players no ones even mentioned like Wade Crane. Halls name has been thrown around in here and I saw Crane beat him in the Finals at Resorts International, Crane shot .1000 match that day, you don’t see that often.

 

[jay helfert]

Harold Worst: the Best Pool and Billiards Player of All Time?

There you go!

 

[jay helfert]

Then there’s players no ones even mentioned like Wade Crane. Halls name has been thrown around in here and I saw Crane beat him in the Finals at Resorts International, Crane shot .1000 match that day, you don’t see that often.

I was the co-TD in that tournament. Buddy was the big favorite going into the finals. It was two out of three Races to Seven. Wade was angry when he heard Buddy was a heavy favorite, and then played a perfect first set (1000) to win 7-0. In the second set Buddy won a few games and lost something like 7-3 or 7-4. That was it.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

I will only say this about Harold Worst. He had an aura about him that has never been matched since. He WAS THE MAN and everybody knew it, tournament champions and hustlers alike! His mantra could have been "Speak softly and carry a big stick." My guess is that he would rise to the occasion on ANY equipment and find a way to be the best. He moved with ease from World Three Cushion mastery to Pool and right away was winning major tournaments and money games with the best in the business. Pretty soon everyone was ducking him, and I mean everyone! The only new guy who did anything close was Parica. He came on the scene and dominated 9-Ball and Ten Ball for two decades. He was unquestionably #1 in the prime years of Earl, Sigel, Varner, Buddy et al. They avoided him to put it mildly.

Everything I've heard about Harold Worst is confirmed from Jay's post. He just may have been the greatest all around player of all time, it's a shame he died so tragically at such a young age.

 

[Island Drive]

He played many of those 9 ballers and they all said that the problem was that when they missed, Mosconi just ran the out.
They all just backed away from the claims that he wouldn’t play their game or couldn’t play the game.

Then there’s players no ones even mentioned like Wade Crane. Halls name has been thrown around in here and I saw Crane beat him in the Finals at Resorts International, Crane shot .1000 match that day, you don’t see that often.

When I saw Eddie Kelly play in a ring game.... Johnston City back room Janscos late 60's.
He had everyone's attention, he busted the game.
He could flat out play, better than Rempe and Marino at that time.
Saw em run a 3 pack in that ringer.
No one wanted to play him that I saw.

 

[AtLarge]

I was the co-TD in that tournament. Buddy was the big favorite going into the finals. It was two out of three Races to Seven. Wade was angry when he heard Buddy was a heavy favorite, and then played a perfect first set (1000) to win 7-0. In the second set Buddy won a few games and lost something like 7-3 or 7-4. That was it.

Vol. 1, No. 4 of Pat Fleming's Accu-Stats Newsletter has the sets the other way around, Jay. It says "Stats were kept during the finals as Crane toppled Buddy Hall 7-3, 7-0 for the $30,000 first prize. During the last set, Crane broke and ran out six of the seven racks while scoring an incredible TPA of 1.000."

 

[BasementDweller]

Mizerak excelled at all games! He won many 9-Ball and One Pocket tournaments. He was the best player through the 1970's (along with Buddy Hall) until the maturation of Earl and the arrival of Parica and Efren. Sigel ran second to the Miz in many tournaments (not only Straight Pool) back then. He was #2.

I know Wikipedia isn't perfect but it does somehow have many of Mizerack's titles listed. Looks like he dominated the 70's in mainly 14.1, until the later 70's where it looks like 9 Ball really gained traction and he may have had a few year window where he was the top dog. Maybe being the top player for a few years. By the 80's, both Sigel and Varner were outpacing Mizerack when it came to grabbing 9 Ball titles.

Is this how you remember it?

 

[Island Drive]

One Miz comment I have (not attacking him) is in match play/Vegas at the Venetian?
Match got called winners side, I think it was the third round.
This was when the Miz was in stroke during the 80's and him being the headliner, those men sometimes got special treatment from the other ''types'' of promoters that were not ''Helfertish''.
I didn't know that was in play till they called my match and I waited, next I notified the TD of my situation, 15 min passsed, I went to the desk they rescheduled it for a later time.
What?
Match play, been cheated a few times by the top HOF players of that era ($).
And the same has happened to me by some flaky promoters.
Especially the ones protecting their home turf.
Cat's meow.
bm

 

[maha]

as in most all things the more important people to the decision maker get the best decisions. not fair but reality.

 

[maha]

mizerack played incredible until he got so fat his belly kept him from his game.

he thought farther ahead in his balls and position than anyone ive ever seen.

 

[jay helfert]

I know Wikipedia isn't perfect but it does somehow have many of Mizerack's titles listed. Looks like he dominated the 70's in mainly 14.1, until the later 70's where it looks like 9 Ball really gained traction and he may have had a few year window where he was the top dog. Maybe being the top player for a few years. By the 80's, both Sigel and Varner were outpacing Mizerack when it came to grabbing 9 Ball titles.

Is this how you remember it?

Mizerak's reign on top (with Sigel, Hall and Varner his main competition) came crashing down after Earl beat him in the ESPN televised finals in 1983 at Caesars Tahoe. Steve was never quite the same after this 22 year old kid embarrassed him on national TV. True, he was still a threat to win any 14.1 tourney, but his reign on top at 9-Ball was clearly over. Following his win in Lake Tahoe, Earl went on a tear winning a couple more big tourneys back east in Ohio and Kentucky, and Mizerak played in both. The final nail was their rematch at Red's in Houston in early 1984. Another win for Earl and Steve had clearly lost his hold on the top rung.

Steve was of course still a threat to beat anyone at One Pocket or 9-Ball but he became more of a contender than a winner after Earl punished him. A sad footnote is that during this period Steve continued to put on weight and by the end of the 1980's he had trouble maneuvering his way around a pool table and became exhausted rather quickly. His game spiraled downward as his weight went upwards.

 

[jay helfert]

as in most all things the more important people to the decision maker get the best decisions. not fair but reality.

I never played favorites! I called fouls on the best of them, and had to forfeit a few of them as well. They didn't get a pass for sleeping in. One time Sigel misread the board and missed his match. Mike was triple pissed when he found out he had forfeited. I told him if he was not sure when he played he should have asked me. I think he came back from the loss to make the final four anyway. Ah, the good old days.

I called a foul on Efren once at the U.S. Open and he just smiled at me and sat down. Later on he took me aside and said "Jay, that was not a foul," and proceeded to show me on the table what happened. Truthfully he may have been right. I was good but not perfect.