BHE vs FHE

BilliardsAbout said:
It's worth the added variable to do what all BHE players enjoy doing, use less adjustment to score the OB.
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It doesn’t take “less adjustment”.

There’s only one angle/spot/speed to hit the CB for a specific outcome - how you get the tip moving that way only determines how reliable your method is - a non-straight stroke is (of course) less reliable.

I know you don’t get this - consider it guidance for others.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It doesn’t take “less adjustment”.

There’s only one angle/spot/speed to hit the CB for a specific outcome - how you get the tip moving that way only determines how reliable your method is - a non-straight stroke is (of course) less reliable.

pj
chgo
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We both know I meant "less estimated adjustment in distance away from the geometric aim point, when using english, because of the improved angle of approach/closer to parallel to the shot line" but concision made it "less adjustment".

We both also know that a traditional english stroke requires adjustment for squirt/deflection and also curve/spin and also perhaps both collision- and spin-induced throw.

Further, we both also know that a straight angle of approach will reduce those multiple variables. That's why outstanding pool professionals add one variable, backhand swoop in tiny, almost imperceptible amounts, to improve the angle of approach as diagrammed, to reduce the adjustment for the variables of squirt, curve and throw--and then spend their winnings on homes, cars and tournament expenses.

I'll sum so we can close our discussion for now:

1) BHE takes about 30 seconds to learn with proper instruction

2) It's not a massive arm swoop as debunked successfully by Dr. Dave, it's tiny incremental wrist movements that a child can do

3) It adds one variable while greatly reducing others, therefore, it makes pocketing balls and position while using english a pleasure
 
BilliardsAbout said:
We both know I meant "less estimated adjustment in distance away from the geometric aim point, when using english, because of the improved angle of approach/closer to parallel to the shot line" but concision made it "less adjustment".
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That’s false. And I doubt there’s much “we both know”.

I’ll repeat myself, not because I think you’ll finally understand but for others reading: there’s only one angle/spot/speed to hit the CB for a specific outcome. Choose the simplest method to accomplish that (a cue moving along its centerline).

pj
chgo
 
BilliardsAbout said:
JV,

Not 1/4" (quarter-inch) of english, 1/4 of a tip, a pool convention that is a tiny increment. For a 13mm tip, 1.65 mm (a tip is one half overlap of itself, so a 1/4 tip is 1/8 of a typical 13mm tip, or 1.65mm over to the right with the tip).

Also, I have free space, like most players, in my closed hand loop, to use, so it's not a pure pivot, almost no one purely pivots around a held axis when they say they do. So! As I've written above (and used at the tables) almost imperceptible supination.

**

PJ,

It's worth the added variable to do what all BHE players enjoy doing, use less adjustment to score the OB. That's why quite a number of playing pros use BHE. We all know it's fundamentals, not fancy moves, that make the pros great players, so they are even more leery of snake oil and adding variables than you or I. They love BHE.

**

All,

I want to teach, not gloat, but it's almost heady to shoot english so easily and watch people with diagonally pivoted cues avoid english at CB-OB distances longer than two diamonds in length. How many books or magazines have you seen that say "avoid english over a distance because of variables"?

I posted a diagram above, where because of the vastly improved angle of approach, you can hold english beautifully, at a variety of shot speeds, over the nine feet of CB travel, score the OB, then have the cue go several rails around the table with spin.

Why? Because the cue is turned slightly diagonally and you're shooting (almost) straight ahead along the shot line.

Finally, the argument against variables sounds like "Don't teach it, because it's harder to do, and less easily learned." Okay, so I have students of all levels from beginner to pro. Do you want to stay intermediates or go to the next level in your game? BHE is a fraction of what you'll need, but I have a current student who is consistently winning matchups with players 100 Fargo points above him... I'm not saying this to be rude or reprove people, but the argument seems moot, for example, open breaks delivered with a lot of force requires adding some variables and some practice, but is for some the most important part of their game.
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Could you please name your student who is a professional pool player so we can watch and learn from him.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That’s false. And I doubt there’s much “we both know”.
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So, there's one who knows more than the other. And that person just always happens to be you in all instances and scenarios, correct?
Patrick Johnson said:
I’ll repeat myself, not because I think you’ll finally understand but for others reading
there’s only one angle/spot/speed to hit the CB for a specific outcome.

pj
chgo
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A pool ball is 2 1/4" in diameter. If a pocket was the same size, that could be true. But pockets are from 4.5" to 5" which has different variables and more leeway for angle, spot, speed.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That’s false. And I doubt there’s much “we both know”.

I’ll repeat myself, not because I think you’ll finally understand but for others reading: there’s only one angle/spot/speed to hit the CB for a specific outcome. Choose the simplest method to accomplish that (a cue moving along its centerline).

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
False? Turning a cue to point diagonally away from the shot line makes shotmaking and calculations easier? Is that why every book and teacher says english is not for beginners?

This is also true, an optimal angle of approach optimizes the initial direction of the cue ball. Put differently, that is why players say they have (virtually) no need to adjust aim for english by changing their AOA via BHE.

And even if we agree regarding the difficulty or variables of BHE, you may still want to use it to improve your game. You can use it even if you feel it's not for less skilled or talented players.

So my advice would be that if you disliked, for example, wrist flexion, try it the pros' way with small supination or pronation, and see if is good for you.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Turning a cue to point diagonally away from the shot line makes shotmaking and calculations easier?
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It's not just easier; it's necessary for side spin shots (of course).

What's unnecessary is angling the cue during the stroke. Again: it accomplishes nothing but adding variables.

pj
chgo
 
sparkle84 said:
Could you please name your student who is a professional pool player so we can watch and learn from him.
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Thank you for asking, a recent pro was Tom Kennedy, who asked me to dissect his current game. He is available to anyone at AZ who'd like a teaching referral for my work.

Tom has old and more recent matches on video/YouTube that you can watch and learn from, also applying to this thread, since he calls english "bringing all back to center" meaning he personally shoots through the center of a ghost cue ball he imagines just behind the cue ball then deviates his stroke for english. So you can see him using lots of BHE in matches.

As an interesting aside, you can use a similar technique for draw and topspin also.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
And even if we agree regarding the difficulty or variables of BHE, you may still want to use it to improve your game. You can use it even if you feel it's not for less skilled or talented players.
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Did you forget to add - "as you obviously are" at the end of your sentence? :ROFLMAO:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's not just easier; it's necessary for side spin shots (of course).

What's unnecessary is angling the cue during the stroke. Again: it accomplishes nothing but adding variables.

pj
chgo
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You are correct as you often are. Is is necessary to turn it diagonally for sidespin for any manner of english stroke.

You did not address what I wrote, however, that turning the cue diagonally makes calculations for scoring balls and etc. more challenging then for regular strokes along the vertical axis. Therefore, if a more oblique to the shot line stroke is also more challenging, BHE provides a less oblique angle of approach to the cue ball, an easier planning process.

And this statement of yours is incorrect:

"What's unnecessary is angling the cue during the stroke. Again: it accomplishes nothing but adding variables."

BHE accomplishes a shallower angle of approach during the stroke, as diagrammed above, which reduces the degree of the variables we call squirt or deflection, swerve or curve, spin-induced throw, etc. Change the angle of approach and you can change the initial direction of the cue ball and more.

I'm trying to close our conversation but you keep making errors of fact, so I'm helping you and others where I can.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
What's unnecessary is angling the cue during the stroke. Again: it accomplishes nothing but adding variables.

pj
chgo
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It's a true, honest to goodness FEEL thing, a real FEEL thing. Not groping and grasping at straws to guess where the contact point is between CB and OB. Those who have done it for years can do it naturally, comfortably, and with precision.
It isn't a violent, herky-jerky move. It's very subtle, smooth, and minute.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
It's a true, honest to goodness FEEL thing, a real FEEL thing. Not groping and grasping at straws to guess where the contact point is between CB and OB. Those who have done it for years can do it naturally, comfortably, and with precision.
It isn't a violent, herky-jerky move. It's very subtle and smooth.
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I would say those who've done it for minutes, when properly taught, but YES, you are right.

If sheer knowledge or logic or etc. made people run racks, we'd have more pros on AZ as members. Yes.
 
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