BHE vs FHE

ChrisinNC said:
BHE is really is not difficult but extremely simple. If you set your bridge hand down in the proper position to start with, then you never have to move your bridge hand when applying right, left, or center.

Without moving your bridge hand, palm or fingers, you just pivot the tip of the cue to exactly where you need to hit it on the cue ball, which then automatically shifts / pivots the butt of the cue. But then after that, it is still a straight back and straight through stroke, no different than FHE.
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My method is similar, but instead of pivoting at the bridge hand, I pivot at where the cue touches my chin. I do my adjustments when up, go down such that the shot image stays the same, have my tip point at the CB wherever I want to apply the spin, have my cue touch the correct (always the same) point on my chin, and shoot along that line.

It's not exactly BHE, but it's not parallel english either. There is a slight angle of impact for the cue relative to being straight forward, just a much smaller one than with typical BHE. Not sure what this method is called, is it just a different way of doing BHE or something else? Or is it FHE?
 
With inside BHE I know I'll be pointing at the contact zone so I just apply and check the feel of the "bite" in the air and/or in position during practice strokes. The degree of eccentricity is always according to where and how far I want the rock to go. The one exception - I'm sure there are many I just haven't gotten around to, is Stricklandesque round the table inside english shots. On these, I point the pivoted cue at the same spot on the object ball I'd hit if it were the cue ball. Then I check the "bite" - in this case it's mostly deflection, before pulling the trigger.
 
Oikawa said:
My method is similar, but instead of pivoting at the bridge hand, I pivot at where the cue touches my chin. I do my adjustments when up, go down such that the shot image stays the same, have my tip point at the CB wherever I want to apply the spin, have my cue touch the correct (always the same) point on my chin, and shoot along that line.

It's not exactly BHE, but it's not parallel english either. There is a slight angle of impact for the cue relative to being straight forward, just a much smaller one than with typical BHE. Not sure what this method is called, is it just a different way of doing BHE or something else? Or is it FHE?
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I just named that 4 wheel steering lol...
 
straightline said:
With inside BHE I know I'll be pointing at the contact zone so I just apply and check the feel of the "bite" in the air and/or in position during practice strokes. The degree of eccentricity is always according to where and how far I want the rock to go. The one exception - I'm sure there are many I just haven't gotten around to, is Stricklandesque round the table inside english shots. On these, I point the pivoted cue at the same spot on the object ball I'd hit if it were the cue ball. Then I check the "bite" - in this case it's mostly deflection, before pulling the trigger.
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Can you please put this in an algebraic formula along with a 2D drawing so we can all understand it better and prove the validity of what you're saying?
 
straightline said:
With inside BHE I know I'll be pointing at the contact zone so I just apply and check the feel of the "bite" in the air and/or in position during practice strokes. The degree of eccentricity is always according to where and how far I want the rock to go. The one exception - I'm sure there are many I just haven't gotten around to, is Stricklandesque round the table inside english shots. On these, I point the pivoted cue at the same spot on the object ball I'd hit if it were the cue ball. Then I check the "bite" - in this case it's mostly deflection, before pulling the trigger.
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Ah, "the bite"...

At >200 posts in. This thread needed some oddly coined reference to something unknown.
 
The_JV said:
If you've paid attention to the forum regarding aiming/shooting practices with the last couple of years. Then you'd be well aware of the "touch of inside" sales pitch and subsequent debate.

The professional practitioner leading that charge. Claimed that the amount of "inside" English produced on the CB was so minor it couldn't be described as English in the traditional sense, but more of a "twist". Equaling less than a rotation of the CB if memory serves.

If that is reality then the questions is, why bother.

However there is a tangible benefit of purposly cueing off CB center. Not sure if thats the case with swooping BHE.

Id say they are players just struggling with the CB physics over distances (aka: casual players) and/or bad teachers.

if an instructor cant explain and teach the CB dynamics with applied english over distance. Then they should return whatever certificate they are issued. If theres such a thing.

You tack on BHE to end of the above quote but dont address the elephant in the room. BHE is a great method for introducing cueing error. Sure that can be practiced around, I suppose, but it doesnt alter the fact you dont address. FHE is easier and doesn't effect mechanics.

Why is it easier....? ..because you have a direct visual reference to not only your adjust tool (FH) but also the subsequent adjustment (tip). ...and again, you have the benefit of utilizing idnetical mechanics

What the hell does this mean...?...lol. Name dropping Occam's Razor along side something additionally complicated doesn’t somehow make it less complicated. If anything Occam is an argument against BHE...lol
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I'm familiar with TOI, thanks for the details.

I've noticed almost every pool teacher and book advising that english isn't for beginners because it's unwieldly over a distance. I think BHE offers some help with that, an obvious tradeoff is learning the new technique. Tom Kennedy almost always uses BHE, I think it is more shot specific.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
So your method works for "pocket hangers two inches off the CB". Impressive. Of course, a small earthquake (or a breeze in the right direction) would also work...

You actually get fools to pay you for this "instruction"? That's more impressive than anything you've said here.

pj
chgo
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As I wrote, I'm happy to have given you the last word on this thread, but we can use other media, too.

Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.

I know the limits and advantages of both methods will be objectively presented that way.
 
DeadStick said:
You think hitting the CB only 1.65 mm off vertical center makes a significant difference in anything?

I’d be surprised if a good player’s standard deviation when attempting center CB isn’t bigger than that.
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My objective was different, as described above. Unsupported claims were made that certain strokes were impossible so I begin with a basic dash of english.

In the same way I have students shoot progressive drills, to learn small amounts of draw or topspin before progressing on.
 
sparkle84 said:
Not really a good example double o. The margin of error is so large you can hit this all kinds of ways and get there.
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To get where? To the end of the diagram where the ball has gone around the table with much right-hand english? Would you mind diagramming the ways or posting a video to demonstrate your knowledge here?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
As I wrote, I'm happy to have given you the last word on this thread, but we can use other media, too.

Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.
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Let me see if I understand this correctly. Are you proposing that PJ is actually at the table DEMONSTRATING FHE on VIDEO with a cue in his hand, an OB, a CB, and a pocket or pockets on a table for the world to see?

HA! HAHAHA! HAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(I gotta leave or I'm gonna peees my pants)!
 
BilliardsAbout said:
To get where? To the end of the diagram where the ball has gone around the table with much right-hand english? Would you mind diagramming the ways or posting a video to demonstrate your knowledge here?
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I think it's obvious to everyone following this discussion what the shot is and how to execute it. It's just another routine shot like that 5 rail shot off the ball hanging in the side that you said you had to do some tricky, amazing thing to make it happen.
I could make that shot a year after I started playing at the age of 10 so there's certainly nothing difficult about it.
I'm not a diagram guy nor a video guy, just a lowly pool player.
 
sparkle84 said:
I think it's obvious to everyone following this discussion what the shot is and how to execute it. It's just another routine shot like that 5 rail shot off the ball hanging in the side that you said you had to do some tricky, amazing thing to make it happen.
I could make that shot a year after I started playing at the age of 10 so there's certainly nothing difficult about it.
I'm not a diagram guy nor a video guy, just a lowly pool player.
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But your comments are self-refuting. You wrote:

"Not really a good example double o. The margin of error is so large you can hit this all kinds of ways and get there."

Meaning you think it's easy to shoot with BHE, so it is a good example. I've never claimed BHE disobeys physics and yields more english, less deflection, etc. rather, for most if not all players, it can make long-distance plays with english go well.

But as we saw on your recent posts in this thread, your strong preference is to lie and argue, not really learning anything. Additionally, you like to say horrible things about people with more integrity.

So what is your argument here? That the diagram I posted was too easy to make with BHE and I should make a harder shot with it? Why, that's what I've just proposed to PJ, so I'll propose the same to you, since you've made these since age 11, no problem:

Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.

I know the limits and advantages of both methods will be objectively presented that way.

But we already know your answer:

"I'm not a diagram guy nor a video guy, just a lowly pool player."

You are behaving in a lowly way, yes. But I believe you can change.

Yet I also believe you play poorly, the real reason you won't make a video. So if it's a matter of poverty, I will pay for your table time to make the video.

How about it?
 
The_JV said:
Ah, "the bite"...

At >200 posts in. This thread needed some oddly coined reference to something unknown.
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The cling/throw factor of inside. I zero the shot with CG (contact geometry) and then estimate the bite by feel. With high velocity shots, deflection is the operative factor. No need for numb ers.
 
A question for all of the BHE wizards who have never used BHE, think BHE is detrimental to the game, yet know everything there is to know about it but won't ever use it in their own game:

Can BHE be done without using/moving the stroking hand at all to create the offset, yet still get an offset?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
As I wrote, I'm happy to have given you the last word on this thread
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Yes, this post demonstrates that clearly.

BilliardsAbout said:
Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.
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You don’t know what those things are. Prove me wrong by defining them.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, this post demonstrates that clearly.


You don’t know what those things are. Prove me wrong by defining them.

pj
chgo
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So you want the last word, but also want me to reiterate where you were wrong, so you don't have the last word?

I see your confusion there between two impulses, but the question stands, would you post videos with me?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I'm familiar with TOI, thanks for the details.

I've noticed almost every pool teacher and book advising that english isn't for beginners because it's unwieldly over a distance. I think BHE offers some help with that, an obvious tradeoff is learning the new technique. Tom Kennedy almost always uses BHE, I think it is more shot specific.
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Define "beginner"...

I think anyone that has reached the point of learning the skill of applying and compensating horizontal English. Needs to be taught and/or experiment with it effects on the CB over varying distances. The tip adjustment method doesn't change what the CB does. Squirt is still squirt. Resulting swerve is still swerve.
 
The_JV said:
Define "beginner"...

I think anyone that has reached the point of learning the skill of applying and compensating horizontal English. Needs to be taught and/or experiment with it effects on the CB over varying distances. The tip adjustment method doesn't change what the CB does.
Squirt is still squirt. Resulting swerve is still swerve.
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Are you saying regardless of FHE or BHE you still get the same amount of squirt and have identical adjustments?

If your answer is "YES", then my answer to "DEFINE "beginner" is...YOU
 
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