Mark Wilson - CB or OB Last - Age Old Issue

DrCue'sProtege said:
... "It makes no difference where the eyes are on the final stroke delivery....."
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I think that's true only for players who have already perfected their stroke and aim. If a player is still working on those, they need to see where the cue ball lands on the object ball. For that, their eyes need to be on the object ball. And the quiet eye principle says the eyes should be focused on the object ball for over half a second before the forward stroke starts.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think that's true only for players who have already perfected their stroke and aim. If a player is still working on those, they need to see where the cue ball lands on the object ball. For that, their eyes need to be on the object ball. And the quiet eye principle says the eyes should be focused on the object ball for over half a second before the forward stroke starts.
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Fully agreed. Imagine a archer focused on the tip of his arrow vs the target. Can it be done. Sure. But you better have perfect alignment and delivery.
 
Your eyes should always be focused on the target OB.

There are exceptions.

One exception being on the break when, once lined up, your eyes should be entirely focused on the CB.

Others being a full masse shot, jump shot, jacked-up over a ball shooting the length of the table.

A spot shot with my eyes closed for money :)
 
zencues.com said:
Your eyes should always be focused on the target OB.
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I pull the trigger looking at the rock so no agreement on _always_. All the alignment checks happen prior to the last stroke - by which time you should have a pretty good idea of what and the wheres you are shooting.
Works so much better than everything I've gone through so far. 50 yrs plus FWIW.
 
If someone aims with a focus on the contact point, it is clearly helpful to look at that point. As someone who doesn't look at a specific point on the OB, I have another reason for OB last:

My method is to look at the OB (not a specific point, just as a whole) while being aware of the CB and cue in my peripheral vision, and focus on the mental image of 1. the cue going perfectly straight, and 2. the shot image staying completely still (or in other words, not moving anything except the shooting arm). If these two things happen, the shot will go in, assuming I was properly aligned with the cue, which I pay great attention to before shooting.

With this approach, the reason for looking at the OB last being better is that, looking at the CB means the OB is blurry in my peripheral vision, but looking at the OB still keeps the CB and cue clear in my peripheral vision. And it is clear that a non-blurry image is more effective for the subconsciousness to work with in terms of shooting straight and staying still.

So OB last simply provides a clearer visual image of everything relevant compared to CB last, and that is why I do it.

Obviously none of this matters for the easy shots, but you should always build your technique around the shots where you start missing due to imperfections.
 
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One person making a statement doesn't make it true, regardless of their authority level. I think it is very well established that the vast majority of players look at the object ball last before their stroke, and as they stroke forward.

Keep in mind that when Mark said that it's possible he was emphasizing the importance of locking in the feel of the shot and delivering a smooth stroke, as if saying "once you are locked in you should be able to close your eyes and still make the shot". That doesn't necessarily mean you should close your eyes when you play. I'm not sure that's what he meant, I'm just skeptical because he has written a lot about eye patterns and is pretty militant about this stuff usually.

Either way, look at the object ball and run out.
 
I look back on forth to get my alignment down, but lately I've been looking at my point of contact on the cue ball while I shoot.

I feel that my potting consistency has improved overall.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think that's true only for players who have already perfected their stroke and aim. If a player is still working on those, they need to see where the cue ball lands on the object ball. For that, their eyes need to be on the object ball. And the quiet eye principle says the eyes should be focused on the object ball for over half a second before the forward stroke starts.
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This I agree with. Totally.
Will Prout
 
what works for you is what works best. every one is different.

but if your stroke isnt straight and you cant hit where you want on the cueball it dosnt matter where you look. as you are looking to get broke.
 
No offense folks but this topic is approaching(WAY past???) "what's the best tip" in its usefulness. Its pretty well established that the vast majority are OB-last players but if CB-last works then fk yeah go for it.
 
I use both. If I'm having trouble controlling the rock I'll look at it last. Missing shape is usually about tip placement and forgetting to account for throw and such. When I look at cb last, my pocketing and cb control goes up. On some shots, especially long straight in shots I'll focus on the OB. Depending on the shot I might have one eye looking at the pocket and the other on the OB, or one on the pocket and one on the CB. Basically you have to see the shot and minimize visual distortions. There are tricks to help with this.

OB last is much more common, but CB last with someone with fundamentals can be a dangerous player. it's different for different folks. There is no wrong way and no right way. If you've never used CB last I recommend putting some practice to it on shorter shots. You're spread on the CB will tighten up and it may surprise you how well it "listens" when you actually hit it within a mm of where you want to.
 
boogieman said:
I use both. If I'm having trouble controlling the rock I'll look at it last. Missing shape is usually about tip placement and forgetting to account for throw and such. When I look at cb last, my pocketing and cb control goes up. On some shots, especially long straight in shots I'll focus on the OB. Depending on the shot I might have one eye looking at the pocket and the other on the OB, or one on the pocket and one on the CB. Basically you have to see the shot and minimize visual distortions. There are tricks to help with this.

OB last is much more common, but CB last with someone with fundamentals can be a dangerous player. it's different for different folks. There is no wrong way and no right way. If you've never used CB last I recommend putting some practice to it on shorter shots. You're spread on the CB will tighten up and it may surprise you how well it "listens" when you actually hit it within a mm of where you want to.
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I agree that cue ball last works great for me when playing on a 7 foot table and on shots where the cue ball is <3 feet from the object ball. Last year I ran 110 balls on a 7’ Diamond practicing 14.1 focused on cue ball last, whereas it’s been 15+ years since I’ve run more than 50 balls on a 9 foot table.

However, for me, on a 9 foot table, on longer shots, where there is >4 feet of distance between the cue ball and object ball and the object ball is still a distance from the pocket, it takes a great amount of trust and solid fundamentals to commit to cue ball last with success. At least that’s what I experienced, so I’ve gone back to object ball last on most shots.

I think even for those that do not want to make the switch to cueball last, occasionally practicing looking at the cue ball last is a great way to groove a straight back and straight through stroke, which is far easier to confirm when your eyes are focused on the cue ball throughout the entire stroke.
 
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you kind of look at both, and for each there becomes a transitional period where you change your focus when the tool used it going to be okay going its way.
 
Tin Man said:
One person making a statement doesn't make it true, regardless of their authority level. I think it is very well established that the vast majority of players look at the object ball last before their stroke, and as they stroke forward.

Keep in mind that when Mark said that it's possible he was emphasizing the importance of locking in the feel of the shot and delivering a smooth stroke, as if saying "once you are locked in you should be able to close your eyes and still make the shot". That doesn't necessarily mean you should close your eyes when you play. I'm not sure that's what he meant, I'm just skeptical because he has written a lot about eye patterns and is pretty militant about this stuff usually.

Either way, look at the object ball and run out.
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Good post. I agree. Reasons why OB focus is generally preferable can be found here:

 
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i am a lefty although i can do most things both ways. but still a lefty. by standards here i should be a righty.

but i do what works best for me not what works best for the majority.

object ball last for most shots work best for most but not for all. to say it is right is wrong. to say it is right for MOST then that is correct.
 
I just finished Mark’s book, and would recommend it to anyone at twice the price. Strangely enough, his teaching has got me looking at the cue ball last on certain shots, and I’ve never done that except while breaking.
 
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