70s/80s Era Questions

[Pawlowski424]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

 

[maha]

gregg, rich gave himself or his little entourage that followed him around the name the hat. as it was always stuttering rich before that.
thats what he did when he talked and he was always talking.

 

[boogieman]

Doesn't matter if you're nobody, I'ma nobody as well. No matter what those so called tests show or say, the old school players I learned from could tell the difference between joints by the hit.
Perhaps some players are blessed w a better tensile ability - an extra sensory touch - than most others. Superior hand/eye is a must for Pros, Pilots and a few other specialties. Lol. They chose their cues based on this ability. I've heard about this from Louie, Mike, Grady, Larry, and a list of others from back in the day. According to those 1% ers, they told me they had the ability to tell the difference, is all I'm saying. As a reality based thinker, I have to admit the possibility this is all bunk and every one of those aforementioned champions were deluding themselves.
If someone was willing to set up a test, I'd be happy to let them try to fool me or shut me up on this topic once and for all. And I would bow out gracefully after making a blanket apology. Until then, I remain amongst those so called delusional old school guys who claim to be able to tell the difference by feel alone.
I'm here for all comers.
Somebody please, shut me up. Lol.
Thanks for the reply boogieman!!

I can't really remember the story but supposedly the "scientific" test was some dude having several players hit with them taped up and guess (if I'm remembering correctly). Who knows. I'm not saying I could tell them in a double blind test, but I'll tell you when you whack the balls with a purpleheart break shaft with a G10, it feels different than one with a steel joint. Sometimes this game makes me feel like I need to be in a loony bin so who knows, I'm not boneheaded enough to say I could tell for sure but I'm also not gullible enough to take one experiment without peer review as gospel.

If anyone can link to the experiment I'd like to give it a read. Color me skeptical but I know almost any cue feels different. Could it be the wood of the shaft, the balance point, the thickness of the grip? Sure, it could be but do we have any rigorous tests or was it some hearsay story passed down from who knows where? I'm genuinely asking, I'm ignorant on the matter, but I remember a story I read somewhere, I wasn't invested enough to really care when I read it so didn't really look into it too much.

 

[gregcantrall]

Apologies. Hijacking was not my intent

The 70s 80s title kind of gives a .......uh disclaimer.
Now I will Ramble on about the 9 ball academy Wednesday nights at The White Spot. Wink

followed him around the name the hat. as it was always stuttering rich before that.
thats what he did when he talked and he was always talking.

My last interaction with Rich ended with him muttering, "I aught to knock you off that stool. " My instant reply was, "I have $1000 in my pocket that says You CAN'T. "

 

[jay helfert]

Doesn't matter if you're nobody, I'ma nobody as well. No matter what those so called tests show or say, the old school players I learned from could tell the difference between joints by the hit.
Perhaps some players are blessed w a better tensile ability - an extra sensory touch - than most others. Superior hand/eye is a must for Pros, Pilots and a few other specialties. Lol. They chose their cues based on this ability. I've heard about this from Louie, Mike, Grady, Larry, and a list of others from back in the day. According to those 1% ers, they told me they had the ability to tell the difference, is all I'm saying. As a reality based thinker, I have to admit the possibility this is all bunk and every one of those aforementioned champions were deluding themselves.
If someone was willing to set up a test, I'd be happy to let them try to fool me or shut me up on this topic once and for all. And I would bow out gracefully after making a blanket apology. Until then, I remain amongst those so called delusional old school guys who claim to be able to tell the difference by feel alone.
I'm here for all comers.
Somebody please, shut me up. Lol.
Thanks for the reply boogieman!!

I think I always had that “extra sensory” touch you talk about. I could feel the weight, balance and most important the ‘hit’ of a cue, just by hitting a few balls. I could also detect imperfections in a cue! YES! Just ask Fatboy about that. He made sure to have me check any high end cue he was thinking about buying.

One time we rolled to the poolroom with
13 Szambotis two Bushkas. It was a 200K deal! Fatboy rented two tables side by side, one table to lay the cues on and one to test them one at a time. I was the tester.

I took each cue and played with it, noting how well they played and how solid they felt. They were all good cues! The Bushkas felt the best to me, and they were the most expensive. I liked all the Szams except one cue. I could feel something wrong with it, like it had a loose part or a crack somewhere.

Now we go back to chat with the sellers who were waiting at Fatboy’s house. I stayed out of the conversation, just sat there listening. Finally Eric asks about this one cue and tells them I told him something was wrong with it. I was really on the spot now! OMG

Now the guys make an admission. The butt cap on that cue had been badly cracked so they had it replaced. BOOM! I was vindicated. They reduced the price on that cue to 6,000 and Eric bought it anyway.

If Eric (Fatboy) sees this he will surely chime in. Just another day in the life.

 

[Island Drive]

Scott Smith had a Buska in the 80's during the Stroud years, it hit horrible, he still got close to 4 K for it then. But yep Jay, hit a few, like with the CF shafts you know right away. I had some of my best 78 worn thin Kikel shafts cut back 5'' and re-ferruled them. Well it cost me nothing to do this (is why) but the ferrules installed (not ivory $$$) were of the phenolic type, I immediately had flash backs on that sound/feel and preferred the ivory/hit/feel/sound/action reaction allot more. But it was an experiment making my set up, stiff.

 

[gregcantrall]

. Not as stiff on sharking and rules. Guys didn't call petty fouls on players

Back in the 80s?
Obviously you have never encountered Lake City Red or Cocomo.
They definitely had a style that pushed limits. Different styles of distraction. Lake City Red was the quarter jingling or conversation. Cocomo tried to streeeeeetch the rules.
I have to thank Red for the inspiration he provided for me to win my first 2 day tournament against the best in the Northwest. Bar box 8 ball race to 4. When he fell into his Whining crying routine while I'm at the table. I took the elevator right to the top and finished with a, " shut up and take it like a Man"(the jist). It got my adrenaline up and it was enough to carry me through the next matches as well.

 

[gregcantrall]

Stroud years

I got to hit balls with a couple of Bill Stoud's works of art. They were gorgeous and with the ivory joints and ivory ferrule......like eating ice cream. Seems like they were $2800 cues at the time.
I did have a friend that had a custom McDammit with ivory joint and ferrule. It had the same feel. Just not as gorgeous. He told me it cost him $250 knowing I would be eating my heart out. As he would never part with it.

 

[gregcantrall]

I could also detect imperfections in a cue!

I had the benefit of Coles outlook on cues. I definitely respected him as authority. His rig had 2 butts
6 shafts
Baggi with waterbuffalo tips maybe 6
The butt I got was broken and repaired (by Cole). He cracked it at the joint. His M O had him drapping his hands over the cue resting on his neck and shoulders.
If I remember right he told me that Buschka cues were straight pool cues. Very valuable of course. Just made for straight pool.

 

[gregcantrall]

The McDermott cues had a softer hit. The plastic in the ferrule and joint was more flexible than Meuccie the harder plastic in the Mooch E did give a crisper hit. Which allows for better precision. Kind of half way to the Joss stainless and Ivory hit.
Owning a high performance auto and being able to drive it are not necessarily connected.
I have not kept up with the current champion's high performance instruments. I'm just too old to consider a change. Old School?

 

[gregcantrall]

Jim Ward was the elder of the Native American players in the Northwest. Marve White was another native player that would get in the ring game with the Big Boys. Jim Ward won a race to 9 tournament from the losers side with a pair of 9 rack packages.

Kind of overlooked Stan Tourangeau. My mind had him as Canadian Aboriginal. So yea Canada is part of America, duh. Headslap.

 

[hurricane145]

Obviously you have never encountered Lake City Red or Cocomo.

Ray would talk you to death. You REALLY had to keep an eye on the game with Cocomo.
Irrespective of all that, I enjoyed the hell out of knowing them, spending time between games talking to them, and playing against them.

 

[gregcantrall]

Ray would talk you to death. You REALLY had to keep an eye on the game with Cocomo.
Irrespective of all that, I enjoyed the hell out of knowing them, spending time between games talking to them, and playing against them.

It was '82 when I started studying at the Wednesday night 9 ball academy at the White Spot. Cocomo very astutely jumped on me and got my allowance the first visit. 35 or 40 dollars at 5 a game. I had no chance but the lesson was money well spent. Every week for a year and a half before I won a beer for 7-8 place.
Dick Trichler is Ray's son and a good sport and a pleasure to compete with and learn from. Mike Danner kind of took me under his wing and gave me guidance. We played Scotch Doubles as a team one night and I learned a lot from that experience. Rather than telling what to do Mike would just go and stand where he wanted to shoot the next shot from.
It was probably about 87 before I was strong enough to get off the porch and run with the big dogs.

 

[Mensabum]

I got to hit balls with a couple of Bill Stoud's works of art. They were gorgeous and with the ivory joints and ivory ferrule......like eating ice cream. Seems like they were $2800 cues at the time.
I did have a friend that had a custom McDammit with ivory joint and ferrule. It had the same feel. Just not as gorgeous. He told me it cost him $250 knowing I would be eating my heart out. As he would never part with it.

Just wanted to say thanks for making me feel welcome and I appreciate all the likes folks!! Thank you all!!

 

[Mensabum]

I think I always had that “extra sensory” touch you talk about. I could feel the weight, balance and most important the ‘hit’ of a cue, just by hitting a few balls. I could also detect imperfections in a cue! YES! Just ask Fatboy about that. He made sure to have me check any high end cue he was thinking about buying.

One time we rolled to the poolroom with
13 Szambotis two Bushkas. It was a 200K deal! Fatboy rented two tables side by side, one table to lay the cues on and one to test them one at a time. I was the tester.

I took each cue and played with it, noting how well they played and how solid they felt. They were all good cues! The Bushkas felt the best to me, and they were the most expensive. I liked all the Szams except one cue. I could feel something wrong with it, like it had a loose part or a crack somewhere.

Now we go back to chat with the sellers who were waiting at Fatboy’s house. I stayed out of the conversation, just sat there listening. Finally Eric asks about this one cue and tells them I told him something was wrong with it. I was really on the spot now! OMG

Now the guys make an admission. The butt cap on that cue had been badly cracked so they had it replaced. BOOM! I was vindicated. They reduced the price on that cue to 6,000 and Eric bought it anyway.

If Eric (Fatboy) sees this he will surely chime in. Just another day in the life.

Thanks Jay!!

 

[Mensabum]

I can't really remember the story but supposedly the "scientific" test was some dude having several players hit with them taped up and guess (if I'm remembering correctly). Who knows. I'm not saying I could tell them in a double blind test, but I'll tell you when you whack the balls with a purpleheart break shaft with a G10, it feels different than one with a steel joint. Sometimes this game makes me feel like I need to be in a loony bin so who knows, I'm not boneheaded enough to say I could tell for sure but I'm also not gullible enough to take one experiment without peer review as gospel.

If anyone can link to the experiment I'd like to give it a read. Color me skeptical but I know almost any cue feels different. Could it be the wood of the shaft, the balance point, the thickness of the grip? Sure, it could be but do we have any rigorous tests or was it some hearsay story passed down from who knows where? I'm genuinely asking, I'm ignorant on the matter, but I remember a story I read somewhere, I wasn't invested enough to really care when I read it so didn't really look into it too much.

Im curious if anybody has the link or if there is one to those tests. If memory serves, I read a name or place in one of the posts, just never followed thru. I could be mistaken.

 

[gregcantrall]

Im curious if anybody has the link or if there is one to those tests. If memory serves, I read a name or place in one of the posts, just never followed thru. I could be mistaken.

Off topic.
The vibration is like a tuning fork. (My theory) A cue can be fine tuned. Cole went through 6 shafts to find one that played to his tune.
Just owning a Stradivarious doesn't mean you can play it.

 

[gregcantrall]

hit with them taped up and guess

The tape would act as a damper. Blindfold would be my choice.
Edit: Perhaps could is better than would.

 

[Mensabum]

Off topic.
The vibration is like a tuning fork. (My theory) A cue can be fine tuned. Cole went through 6 shafts to find one that played to his tune.
Just owning a Stradivarious doesn't mean you can play it.

Well Said!!

 

[book collector]

Cue Ball physics was developed in the 1820s by Coriolis (a French Gentleman and mathematician)

Gaspard-Gustave de Coriolis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tretis on colliding spheres:: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k29318f.notice

Simonis cloth was available in 1972 when we redid the table in the frat house.

Nose weight on shaft is entirely player preference (and always has been).

Pocket lines and navigating the table was more aligned with 14.1 continuous than 9-ball.
In my youth (50-60) I had books by Hoppe and another by Mosconi doing pretty much what the Byrne series of books did.

Don't know about professions tournament conditions were.

You're joking ,right?

 

[Mensabum]

Off topic.
The vibration is like a tuning fork. (My theory) A cue can be fine tuned. Cole went through 6 shafts to find one that played to his tune.
Just owning a Stradivarious doesn't mean you can play it.

Scruggs, Frye, Stroud, etc... had figured out, as have many cuemakers worth their salt, that certain combinations of wood and other 'material' in cues, provided what many deem the ultimate 'Hit'. That's why cues w these combinations are so highly sought after. By players and collectors alike. The 'Strads of Axes', if you will.