Noah ?
OK lets start some trouble LOL (Diamond System)
- Thread starter gerard soriano
- Start date
You started the wise guy stuff as usual...right on cue. And you know it, Mr. innocent. (it's OK, Bobby J. loved it and got a good belly laugh)
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It can't possibly be before Coriolis.
I believe that Phelan gets the credit for putting sights on the rails. As for the distance, it might say in the patent (if there is one) but I imagine they were centered in the wood part of the top of the rail.
Agr
agree fully and when (testing the rails) ya need a system IMHOI would call it an estimate. Educated estimate being the most accurate. With different conditions and variables that change even with the weather.
The numbers gives me a baseline then I consider the results I got when testing during warm up. Everyone tests the rails first, Right?
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
I just guess and usually guess right.
You can just eye ball those diamonds and guess where you have to hit it. I never go straight in because I use some sort of English. Even English on dead center banks.
You can just eye ball those diamonds and guess where you have to hit it. I never go straight in because I use some sort of English. Even English on dead center banks.
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Just a guess, Wouldn't that be where the slate ends under the rail?
Phelan's 1850 book has sights on the rails at the correct places:
I don't get the feeling from his text that this was his creation. Phelan's 1856 patent (covering rail cushions, not the diamonds) illustrates standard diamonds:
The patent doesn't mention the diamond marks, nor do his earlier patents, so I suspect he didn't come up with the markings.
That's because the Diamond system was developed for playing billiards, not pocket pool. Billiards tables have about 1,000 less variables to deal with, than the Diamond system on pool tables present. The Diamond system is a carry over idea to pool tables, but compare the 2 games. 3C tables have cloth installed that is so fast, it's impossible to play pool on it if installed on a pool table. The balls used for billiards are NOT 2 1/4" in size, they're quite a bit bigger. The nose height on most billiards tables is 1 9/16" and pool tables, for the best tables, 1 7/16" that's an 1/8" difference in nose height. Most billiards tables have heated slates, and thicker slates as well! Wonder why that is
not really, I know why! The cloth used is pretty much the same on all billiards tables, because the cloth has such an effect on how the balls bank, travel, and speed! Can ANYONE say the same about all the 9ft pool tables used today? Let alone the bar tables? Billiards tables are cleaned a hell of a lot more than most pool rooms clean their pool tables!! Billiards balls are kept clean, as that's a must, dirty balls can have a serious effect on the banking system on a billiards table! I just find it to be some funny as% shit that people really expect pool tables to play like billiards tables, and follow the patterns of banks as so many have written, for BILLIARS! The DIFFERENCE between a billiards table and a pocket pool table is the REASON players need to be smart enough to adjust their banks to the table they're playing on at the moment, and every table they WILL be playing on, because at any given time, they can change on you! Only a fool complains about its banking perfect, or it banks like shit. A Pro will adjust, and strive to win over his/her opponent! An amateur will always blame losing on the pool table, because they only know how to play a perfect game, on a PERFECT POOL TABLE!
according to you @realkingcobraThat's because the Diamond system was developed for playing billiards, not pocket pool. Billiards tables have about 1,000 less variables to deal with, than the Diamond system on pool tables present. The Diamond system is a carry over idea to pool tables, but compare the 2 games. 3C tables have cloth installed that is so fast, it's impossible to play pool on it if installed on a pool table. The balls used for billiards are NOT 2 1/4" in size, they're quite a bit bigger. The nose height on most billiards tables is 1 9/16" and pool tables, for the best tables, 1 7/16" that's an 1/8" difference in nose height. Most billiards tables have heated slates, and thicker slates as well! Wonder why that is
I just find it to be some funny as% shit that people really expect pool tables to play like billiards tables, and follow the patterns of banks as so many have written, for BILLIARS! The DIFFERENCE between a billiards table and a pocket pool table is the REASON players need to be smart enough to adjust their banks to the table they're playing on at the moment, and every table they WILL be playing on, because at any given time, they can change on you! Only a fool complains about its banking perfect, or it banks like shit. A Pro will adjust, and strive to win over his/her opponent! An amateur will always blame losing on the pool table, because they only know how to play a perfect game, on a PERFECT POOL TABLE!
the rail on a pool table is 1 7/16 inch which equals 36.512 mm
a pool ball is 57.15 mm
the rail height is 44.06% of the pool ball
according to you
the rail on a billiard table is 1 9/16 inch which equals 39.687 mm
a billiard ball is 61.5 mm
the rail height is 43.11% of the billiard ball
i dont think the 0.95% difference is enough to use as one of the differences between how a billiard table plays compared to a pool table
(i dont know for sure so i could be wrong)
in my experience
most of the billiard systems do work on a pool table......yes each table might need an adjustment
billiard players test the table they are going to play on too to find the adjustments necessary
jmho
The first diagram you posted is of a snooker table, snooker tables don't have Diamonds in the rails. They only use 4 diamonds to indicate the head and foot of the table for the placement of balls.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
First diagram alone is more useful than any numbered system. Some people are more visually adept at knowing, understanding and remembering how these things work. Space, shape and measure come more naturally to some than others. Numbered systems in my opinion, are just there to reassure those who may not understand the geometry so readily. To get them to slow down, and find the line - Not to be taken as gospel. I've spoken to quite a few outstanding players who do not use any system. Yes, they are calculating angles, and yes they are using diamonds as points of reference, but they are playing mostly using intuition and understanding from prior experience.
Don't play much on pool tables but I've only experience one Brand that banked to the Corner 5 System. That would be the old Vitalie.
Haven't yet tried a Diamond with clean cloth and balls. Don't expect to find that situation either. Unfortunately.
With most pool tables, banking from the corner pocket, you have to hit the 2nd diamond. Then of course the CB goes to the 3rd diamond. From there it lands in the other corner pocket.
Totally Wrong according to the Corner 5 System.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Personally I don't use the diamonds for much. Maybe the 3 rail to see if the table is banking short or long. Banking is feel, be it a normal bank, cross bank, 2 rail or a Z. If you struggle with a certain bank, practice it. Play banks and 1P and you will improve. Aim, speed, spin. Kicking is looking at it and knowing where to hit it. Diamonds are references at best but I pretty much ignore them completely. I am going to make the ball or hit the side I want to hit and diamond systems don't work that way. You have to adapt to get the CB to contact the OB with the aim line, speed, and spin you want to. Is there a system for it? Maybe but I don't need to choose between 6 systems that require estimation in any space between diamonds and remember where the system breaks down in reality when I'm going for a 1, 2, or 3 railer. If I have to go 4 rails for contact then It's a bit tougher, but I'll often get the hit anyway. Jump cues usually make a 4 railer not worth attempting but if someone gets you tight enough you can't jump, good on them, but I have a large chance I'll get a hit at least.
Now at one time I knew most systems (and their various numbering) and at one time practiced them a lot. I was the guy with the little notebook with a dozen systems that I could study during practice. Eventually I decided the best ones could be done with geometry, speed, and spin. The diamond numbering systems aren't really anything special, and deciding between 6 different ones at any time is too taxing when you can just look at the OB and hit it.
If you (not you personally Flake) like them, great. Different strokes for different folks. If you have to do even elementary math to get a hit, then you need to practice the systems and actually get to the point you understand them and don't need to do the math. Then it all becomes adapting to table conditions. One could say feel, but that is a trigger word for some. Feel is adapting whatever you are doing/thinking/planning to the real world conditions. Without that final step no system works as intended.
Those diagrams were old even by the time of Phelan. I think the main benefit of the sight marks is they let you more easily estimate quarter and half distances along the rail. But of course snooker and plenty of other billiard tables don’t have them.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
Forget the diamond markers.
Just think half the distance. Shoot the half.
3 rails? Cut it in half again.
Just think half the distance. Shoot the half.
3 rails? Cut it in half again.
Kindly elaborate.