I'm so damn LAZY

J

jjohnson

Registered
"I'm still in bed. I think I will stay here all day. F it."

"It's all about the stroke."
"It's all about focusing."
"Everything will follow from there."

I used to think I was pretty smart until I turned about 33 years old. Then...

When I first started playing pool at 15, I literally asked myself, "Self, should I focus on making the balls or playing position?
That was pretty smart of me to ask this question at 15. Should have known better. I chose "making the balls."

#1 truth in Pool: it's all about position. The truth is, if you know the path and spot position, without doubt, absolutely, EVERYTHING does follow. It will tell you the ghost ball, the cue ball strike point, the shot line, how hard to shoot the shot, everything. You name it. The only thing left is execution.

When I was 15, I think I decided that making the balls should be my focus because this required the least amount of mental "lifting." I was mentally lazy. Little did I know that this would lead to my game going almost nowhere. Pool suicide.

Growing up in general, I was habitually lazy. It was a chore to have to take out the garbage when asked. Homework? Forget about it. I am still being weighted down because of mental laziness.

Playing position on every shot takes effort like lifting weights. It burns calories. But ohhhh. It sure pays off. You've got to give these top players a lot of credit. They are definitely not any kind of lazy.

Go ahead. Ask yourself what you should do given any shot. Knowing the path and spot position will answer it for you.

Technique is different: it's a personal matter.

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As all my other posts
 
Ideally one should have pocketing down as a separate entity. Basic cue ball is a byproduct of this. As these concepts stabilize and become fluid abilities, more advanced cue ball can be added. Otherwise the player can develop interdependencies that properly developed players can take advantage of - if only as a matter of confidence in their superior abilities; ie. independent pocketing and cue ball.
 
straightline said:
Ideally one should have pocketing down as a separate entity. Basic cue ball is a byproduct of this. As these concepts stabilize and become fluid abilities, more advanced cue ball can be added. Otherwise the player can develop interdependencies that properly developed players can take advantage of - if only as a matter of confidence in their superior abilities; ie. independent pocketing and cue ball.
Click to expand...

I saw and see things pretty much the opposite. Since the object ball is usually the first thing I hit with the cue ball it is the first step in cue ball control. If trying to rate pocketing and position separately I would say I usually put 20% effort in pocketing the object ball and eighty percent effort in playing shape. Pocketing the object ball is usually the easiest part of the shot.

Exceptions of course, pretty much always are exceptions if we try to make blanket statements. However most of my effort is dedicated to cue ball control. I want to shoot most shots from sixteen to twenty-four inches away. When I do that pocketing balls is rarely difficult and I can focus on shape for the next shot.

Different perspectives. I learned my game from players that learned their game playing straight pool. That shaped the way I play.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I saw and see things pretty much the opposite. Since the object ball is usually the first thing I hit with the cue ball it is the first step in cue ball control. If trying to rate pocketing and position separately I would say I usually put 20% effort in pocketing the object ball and eighty percent effort in playing shape. Pocketing the object ball is usually the easiest part of the shot.

Exceptions of course, pretty much always are exceptions if we try to make blanket statements. However most of my effort is dedicated to cue ball control. I want to shoot most shots from sixteen to twenty-four inches away. When I do that pocketing balls is rarely difficult and I can focus on shape for the next shot.

Different perspectives. I learned my game from players that learned their game playing straight pool. That shaped the way I play.

Hu
Click to expand...
Sure at a proficient level. Past advanced beginner even. Still the claim was learning pocketing first was a mistake.
mMMaaaybe. If you spend 6 months learning to cinch your favorite shots and then realize you need to play position, you may plow on and mess with speed and maybe various english with indeterminable results. Not saying you can't get good being a stroke, beware the Fillers and Gorsts is all.

Nuther thing about good cue ball, the player has very little concern over the object ball. That's been addressed in preparation and should be a given during show time.

To me, learning independent application of the zones like speed/angle/spin is much more conducive to winning play. On the extreme end, akin to a helicopter gunship hunting a lone animal.
 
ShootingArts said:
I saw and see things pretty much the opposite. Since the object ball is usually the first thing I hit with the cue ball it is the first step in cue ball control. If trying to rate pocketing and position separately I would say I usually put 20% effort in pocketing the object ball and eighty percent effort in playing shape. Pocketing the object ball is usually the easiest part of the shot.

Exceptions of course, pretty much always are exceptions if we try to make blanket statements. However most of my effort is dedicated to cue ball control. I want to shoot most shots from sixteen to twenty-four inches away. When I do that pocketing balls is rarely difficult and I can focus on shape for the next shot.

Different perspectives. I learned my game from players that learned their game playing straight pool. That shaped the way I play.

Hu
Click to expand...
I thought about that for a second and realized the opposite was true for me. I learned my game from players that learned their game playing crooked pool. That shaped the way I play.
 
Because how a cue ball comes off of contact with the object ball is usually the first step in playing shape it is generally impossible to get perfect shape if that first contact is wrong. I can hit a ball so slowly it trickles in or slam it in at warp speed. If the angle is right, the object ball still falls. Shape will usually be totally disrupted if speed isn't right.

Likewise, if the object ball is a foot or less from the pocket I may be able to pocket the ball with a substantial range of angles. However, the cue ball may end up a foot or more from where intended even if it doesn't strike an unplanned ball or cushion.

These things are why I say if I play shape properly, the object ball has to fall. On the other hand, there is no guarantee of shape if the object ball falls.

This is why almost all of my attention is focused on shape. An entire runout is often a cycle repeated over and over. Pocket a ball with perfect short to midrange shape and it is easy to pocket the next ball with short to midrange shape on the next. No thought required between shots when you don't get out of line. When the total distance from cue ball to pocket is a half table or less shape and the game becomes much much easier.

Hu
 
straightline said:
<snip>... Still the claim was learning pocketing first was a mistake.
mMMaaaybe...<snip>
Click to expand...
No, that was not the claim: not the thrust/preponderance of the claim. I had a choice. I chose unwisely and here, again, more fully, is why my choice was unwise. Determining/playing path/position necessarily includes making the shot. Making the shot is not necessarily inclusive of making the position. Just intending to make the shot suggests very little about how to go about it. Determining/playing path/position tells you the ghost ball, shot line, cue tip/cue ball contact point, stroke acceleration/speed, release point, etc. Determining/playing path/position puts the shot to rest: only execution remains. You only have to get down to business. No more questions or doubts. Pure focus. This focus includes minor adjustments for contact (translational)/english (rotational) throw, perhaps effective throw at object ball contact due to translational/rotational cue ball speed, transfer of energy from cue ball to object ball from effects such as humidity or filthy balls, etc. Speaking of which, just merely intending to make the object ball in a pocket only suggests poking around trying to find a hole. Which approach would you recommend to someone just taking up the sport on day one, knowing it will be the foundation of their game for life? Or will you just say, "That's it. Just swing your arm back and forth. Yeah. You're getting it. I think you could become a very good pool player."
 
Says you chose wrong.

jjohnson said:
When I first started playing pool at 15, I literally asked myself, "Self, should I focus on making the balls or playing position?
That was pretty smart of me to ask this question at 15. Should have known better. I chose "making the balls."
Click to expand...

Just making balls is probably a mistake. Learning to pocket balls isn't.

straightline said:
Ideally one should have pocketing down as a separate entity. Basic cue ball is a byproduct of this. As these concepts stabilize and become fluid abilities, more advanced cue ball can be added. Otherwise the player can develop interdependencies that properly developed players can take advantage of - if only as a matter of confidence in their superior abilities; ie. independent pocketing and cue ball.
Click to expand...
And what I said is what you tried to claim. No biggie. It's correct. Ball control should be taken separately from object ball direction. What you can't have is your control ranges compromised by incomplete pocketing method. Making the ball is foregone to the best.
 
straightline said:
Says you chose wrong
Click to expand...
I chose unwisely. And my advice supports my contention. I clearly described the advantages determining path and spot position when learning the game from the start. Any question of "What should I do?" after determining the path and spot position will be answered automatically. The novice can then focus on executing the shot accordingly. With practice this process will become habitual consistent and even intuitive.
straightline said:
And what I said is what you tried to claim.
Click to expand...
No it isn't. How did I "tried to claim" what you said when I am the original poster and made my considered approach to learning the game before you even entered into the thread? I know there are plenty of conscientious members in this forum who hold honesty to a higher standard. I don't like to have to become a snake wrangler but I will when the circumstances require.
 
jjohnson said:
I chose unwisely. And my advice supports my contention. I clearly described the advantages determining path and spot position when learning the game from the start. Any question of "What should I do?" after determining the path and spot position will be answered automatically. The novice can then focus on executing the shot accordingly. With practice this process will become habitual consistent and even intuitive.
Click to expand...
That was the point. Just making balls while a normal pursuit won't get you playing pool.
 
jjohnson said:
No, that was not the claim: not the thrust/preponderance of the claim. I had a choice. I chose unwisely and here, again, more fully, is why my choice was unwise. Determining/playing path/position necessarily includes making the shot. Making the shot is not necessarily inclusive of making the position. Just intending to make the shot suggests very little about how to go about it. Determining/playing path/position tells you the ghost ball, shot line, cue tip/cue ball contact point, stroke acceleration/speed, release point, etc. Determining/playing path/position puts the shot to rest: only execution remains. You only have to get down to business. No more questions or doubts. Pure focus. This focus includes minor adjustments for contact (translational)/english (rotational) throw, perhaps effective throw at object ball contact due to translational/rotational cue ball speed, transfer of energy from cue ball to object ball from effects such as humidity or filthy balls, etc. Speaking of which, just merely intending to make the object ball in a pocket only suggests poking around trying to find a hole. Which approach would you recommend to someone just taking up the sport on day one, knowing it will be the foundation of their game for life? Or will you just say, "That's it. Just swing your arm back and forth. Yeah. You're getting it. I think you could become a very good pool player."
Click to expand...
These are control issues which I had already pointed out are secondary to pocketing balls. Learning to pocket balls supplies a great deal of natural cue ball which most would retain even while still on pocketing the ball. More advanced cue ball should not be tackled while the student is still in the "pocket fixation" stages.
It's how skills are taught and acquired. Step by step.
 
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High school and just past high school some idiot boys thought the best way to show off their pool skills was to crush their date that had seldom if ever played pool. When I was inclined I stepped in.

"Hit my finger." I would tell them to shoot softly, medium, or hard. Some of the little sweethearts asked if that wouldn't hurt my finger. "The finger isn't going to be there when the cue ball gets there." It wasn't unusual for these girls to have three, four, or five ball runs on a bar table with just speed and a more precise aiming point. They didn't know they were playing shape but they were.

If we start off just focused on pocketing balls we pocket them the easiest way, often to the determent of shape. Then after someone is pocketing balls pretty well they start trying to learn shape. Generally their ball pocketing goes way down for awhile.

Ball pocketing and shape are elements of the same shot if we are to have any success on a pool table. There is no reason to break them apart and prolong the early learning phase. Do both to begin with, have more success and two phases of learning to play are united as one.

Pool is a frustrating game to learn. If a person pockets a ball with no idea where the cue ball is going to stop it is a lot more frustrating. It wasn't unusual for the young ladies to come ask for more help, to the annoyance of their dates!(grin)

There can be an advantage to breaking something down into parts when learning. However, there is also a point where it is counterproductive to break something down further. To have more than minimum success a person has to know how to play shape. Teaching at least rude shape from the start makes happier beginners. It was amazing how much just the finger target and speed did for beginners. No rush to introduce spin of any kind. When they were ready they would ask about it.

Hu
 
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