A video on pivoting systems

Yes, agreed, but the topic at hand, I think, is what makes CTE objective? In looking to Poolology I'd say it is an objective system because the geometry of the table and the ball positions are linked to the ball fractions. Bottom line, the system tells you where to aim to pocket the ball without any fudging from the player. Now, whether the player can visualize a 5/16 hit on the ob is a different matter, but IMO that has nothing to do whether this system tells you where to hit and is therefore "objective" (I know there are some simplifications to make Poolology useable).
We disagree on that. My definition of "fully objective" is that no judgement, or only the most simplistic judgement, is required of the player. For instance, what if a system produced cut angles in degrees as the solution? Is aiming still "objective" if the player has to estimate how to aim a 23° cut? A mathematically accurate solution may not be "objective" to the player.

pj
chgo
 
We disagree on that. My definition of "fully objective" is that no judgement, or only the most simplistic judgement, is required of the player. For instance, what if a system produced cut angles in degrees as the solution? Is aiming still "objective" if the player has to estimate how to aim a 23° cut? A mathematically accurate solution may not be "objective" to the player.

pj
chgo
I think for the purposes of CTE and whether it is objective the issue of how practical it is or even if possible to use is secondary. There is no evidence that CTE is objective other than "it's 3D...perceptions... round barn!!!." I'd like to see simply how it works before even thinking about practicality. For that reason I'm leaving out the player's ability to use the system in my definition of objective.

But I get your point.
 
Once more:
- an objective system identifies easily seen CB/OB features to align
- the player aligns them visually and sends the CB along that line

So an example of an easily see CB/OB feature would be what? Give me some examples? The center of the balls based on where they touch the table bed? The edges of the balls?

So for a straight in shot if the player, and I assume it's ok for the player to now be involved in the process, would identify the center of the cueball and the center of the object ball and place their cue on that line and that would count as an objective use of easily seen features that create a line that the cue ball should travel down?

Fooled me.

When you demonstrate that you're willing and able to have a simple, constructive conversation I might answer again.

pj <- not hopeful
chgo

Why are you being so snarky? Have I asked you questions that are difficult to answer? Do you feel that I don't understand the terms and the descriptions you have given thus far?

You don't have to answer at all. I am trying to make sure that I understand your terms and the criteria by which an aiming system could reach the level of objectivity.
 
If he is having trouble imagining such a system I would point to Poolology as an example. The system tells you what fractional hit to aim for. It is up to the player to correctly sight what a 1/2 ball or 3/4 ball looks like. There's more to it, of course, but the system, overall, is objective.

I am not having trouble imagining anything. I am asking for clarification of the terms and definitions that Pat has put out. If you can clarify them then please feel free to answer the questions that I asked of him. Once I have that clarification I can then think about how the systems that I know of fit into that criteria. I can describe in detail every step of the systems that I am familiar with. If Pat says that a system has to do x to be objective then I want to be absolutely clear as to what X is to Pat or you. It is in fact the desire to NOT want to imagine or assume meaning that drives the request for clarity.
 
Yes, I’d accept major fractions (1/2, 1/4) as “objective enough”, even though it takes some judgement to “see” them (especially if you’re using them on both balls). Smaller fractions I consider more firmly in the realm of “estimation”, even if you’re only estimating them on one ball.

pj
chgo
Ok now we have a little more clarity. So major fractions are examples of CB/OB features that can be easily seen and should be able to be used to produce a shot line that the cueball must travel down? Is that correct?
 
Ok now we have a little more clarity. So major fractions are examples of CB/OB features that can be easily seen and should be able to be used to produce a shot line that the cueball must travel down? Is that correct?

This (that I said to you previously) is what's correct.
Patrick Johnson said:
Once more:
- an objective system identifies easily seen CB/OB features to align
- the player aligns them visually and sends the CB along that line

Enough of your clueless dodging. Describe (in less than novel length) how your system does that or go away.

Frankly, I'd prefer the latter.

pj
chgo
 
We disagree on that. My definition of "fully objective" is that no judgement, or only the most simplistic judgement, is required of the player. For instance, what if a system produced cut angles in degrees as the solution? Is aiming still "objective" if the player has to estimate how to aim a 23° cut? A mathematically accurate solution may not be "objective" to the player.

pj
chgo
In other words: A system can be objective when it comes to providing an aiming solution, but the actual implementation of the system's solution is subjective. I agree with that.
 
In other words: A system can be objective when it comes to providing an aiming solution, but the actual implementation of the system's solution is subjective. I agree with that.
I wonder how you can objectively aim an outside spin thin cut when you have to aim to MISS the ball and let deflection take it back to the ball. 😆
 
I wonder how you can objectively aim an outside spin thin cut when you have to aim to MISS the ball and let deflection take it back to the ball. 😆

Lol. Right. It's called guesswork/estimation, based on experience, which definitely isn't objective.

The aiming references one might use as a foundation could be objective, but the perfect amount of spin and speed and cue elevation needed to land the cb where it needs to be is purely subjective.
 
I wonder how you can objectively aim an outside spin thin cut when you have to aim to MISS the ball and let deflection take it back to the ball.

That would be an example of guessing. The amount of guessing can be reduced by how familiar the shooter is with the amount of deflection over distance that the cue produces. It can also be reduced by systemically aiming what would be a center ball aim and adjusting based on the deflection knowledge.

This is where you always fail to understand that aiming by feel is always open to the shooter. Especially for the exotic shots such as you describe.

That's the beauty of this great sport, all kinds of ways to aim shots and all sorts of ways to play shape. Aiming is only the first thing that the player does, the rest is physical shooting part and that part is a combination of knowledge, judgement, estimation, nerves and stroke quality.

A complete player practices all the different ways to aim and shoot.
 
Funny how the guy who doesn't get it doesn't get it, whether it be my friend JP or JB.

You are PJ's problem now.
I am not anyone's problem. You and Pat exist in this tiny sliver of the Internet. The larger world is happily learning and using cte and other good aiming systems without the slightest idea who I am or who you are.

Your only value to me is for entertainment when I feel like browsing azb and see you knocking and I feel like answering. I am sure that there are hundreds of comments you have made that I would take issue with but which I haven't seen and don't really care about.

And honestly, fidget aimer is a super nobody and any video of him playing would be universally ridiculed so I fully understand why he will never allow himself to be filmed. If there is any adult human less qualified to tell people how to aim than him I would say that that person is probably in a coma.

Yesterday I had a really fun day playing golf on a 10ft snooker table. I used cte to objectively aim and had a lot of success and got lots of compliments from the other players. That's the bottom line for me. Does a tool make my life better by using it or not? For objective aiming methods the answer is absolutely.

Which reminds me that it is time to update the cte testimonials thread.
 
From Facebook:

What a fun yet challenging weekend for me. Praise Jesus 🙏.
MOB Productions are a class act. What an amazing event, run so smoothly. This group does a top notch job on running the biggest and best pool tournaments in Las Vegas. If you haven't played in their events yet, what are you doing? Im a 500 fargo rated player and I just won't over $20,000!! Yeah! They are unbelievable and what they do for the pool world is unprecedented! Thank you for all you do!
Thank you to the two venues Putters and Rum Runner for hosting such a big event and creating an exciting atmosphere with wonderful service.
There are many people who contributed to the success I was able to enjoy this weekend and I want to share these moments with them, as these are the people who made it all happen.
Stan Shuffett you are the person who opened the door for me. It was your life's work and your willingness to share it with the world that made this all possible. Your book Center Pocket Music using CTE Pro One to improve your pool game is a game changer! Your work is legendary. You don't get the credit you deserve my friend but it is coming! They can't deny it forever!
My support group at home with Doug Cacciola and the guys who challenge me everyday and force me to understand myself more and more each day. Thank you my growth is your success. ❤️
My friends that are truly my family Andrea Robinson Derek Reppenhagen Justin Koetter you believed in me, we're with me through it all, you guys are my strength. Your strength is my strength. ❤️
Huge shout out to Phil Etcheverry and Sue Orr your lessons and the things you showed me are exactly what was necessary for me to actually earn 1st. Your voices were with me throughout. I could hear you. Thank you for sharing and helping me. ❤️
Las Vegas pool community. You all know who you are! Holy crap!!! I can't express what it is like to feel your love and support throughout this weekend. I have never felt anything like it before. You all know who you are. Thank you so much!! This one is for us! Your energy became my energy. I'm blessed to be a part of your group.
Can't forget A9HIL8ION for giving me the gear that helped me stay cool, calm and comfy throughout the tournament! Appreciate you guys and your gear really makes a difference!
Last but not least, the magician behind the scenes. Roxann Silvia this women, my love, my heart, has been molding me for years. Loving, nurturing, encouraging, believing in me, being my rock, helping me process, showing the other perspectives I don't see. You sweetheart are part of who I am. You are the water and sunshine that makes me grow. I would not be the person I am today without you. Love you.
It feels great to enjoy life again, thank you Jesus for saving me. ❤️
 
From Facebook:

What a fun yet challenging weekend for me. Praise Jesus 🙏.
MOB Productions are a class act. What an amazing event, run so smoothly. This group does a top notch job on running the biggest and best pool tournaments in Las Vegas. If you haven't played in their events yet, what are you doing? Im a 500 fargo rated player and I just won't over $20,000!! Yeah! They are unbelievable and what they do for the pool world is unprecedented! Thank you for all you do!
Thank you to the two venues Putters and Rum Runner for hosting such a big event and creating an exciting atmosphere with wonderful service.
There are many people who contributed to the success I was able to enjoy this weekend and I want to share these moments with them, as these are the people who made it all happen.
Stan Shuffett you are the person who opened the door for me. It was your life's work and your willingness to share it with the world that made this all possible. Your book Center Pocket Music using CTE Pro One to improve your pool game is a game changer! Your work is legendary. You don't get the credit you deserve my friend but it is coming! They can't deny it forever!
My support group at home with Doug Cacciola and the guys who challenge me everyday and force me to understand myself more and more each day. Thank you my growth is your success. ❤️
My friends that are truly my family Andrea Robinson Derek Reppenhagen Justin Koetter you believed in me, we're with me through it all, you guys are my strength. Your strength is my strength. ❤️
Huge shout out to Phil Etcheverry and Sue Orr your lessons and the things you showed me are exactly what was necessary for me to actually earn 1st. Your voices were with me throughout. I could hear you. Thank you for sharing and helping me. ❤️
Las Vegas pool community. You all know who you are! Holy crap!!! I can't express what it is like to feel your love and support throughout this weekend. I have never felt anything like it before. You all know who you are. Thank you so much!! This one is for us! Your energy became my energy. I'm blessed to be a part of your group.
Can't forget A9HIL8ION for giving me the gear that helped me stay cool, calm and comfy throughout the tournament! Appreciate you guys and your gear really makes a difference!
Last but not least, the magician behind the scenes. Roxann Silvia this women, my love, my heart, has been molding me for years. Loving, nurturing, encouraging, believing in me, being my rock, helping me process, showing the other perspectives I don't see. You sweetheart are part of who I am. You are the water and sunshine that makes me grow. I would not be the person I am today without you. Love you.
It feels great to enjoy life again, thank you Jesus for saving me. ❤️
About whom was this written (“from Facebook”)? What tournament and when? And what was that person’s accomplishment in the tournament?
 
...fidget aimer is a super nobody and any video of him playing would be universally ridiculed so I fully understand why he will never allow himself to be filmed. If there is any adult human less qualified to tell people how to aim than him I would say that that person is probably in a coma.
Yet the only time we've ever played I won. 🤔

pj <- maybe the coma made you forget :)
chgo
 
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If he is having trouble imagining such a system I would point to Poolology as an example. The system tells you what fractional hit to aim for. It is up to the player to correctly sight what a 1/2 ball or 3/4 ball looks like. There's more to it, of course, but the system, overall, is objective.
This is funny as hell, Brians, Poolology uses the exact same portions, fractions, or edges, of the balls to aim with as CTE does, and other that the use of the side of my cue I would point out that they are the only things I use to aim with after a quick initial glance at the ball positions on the table, yet somehow for Poolology these fractions are objective but for the purpose of CTE are not, never have been and never ever will be.
 
This is funny as hell, Brians, Poolology uses the exact same portions, fractions, or edges, of the balls to aim with as CTE does, and other that the use of the side of my cue I would point out that they are the only things I use to aim with after a quick initial glance at the ball positions on the table, yet somehow for Poolology these fractions are objective but for the purpose of CTE are not, never have been and never ever will be.
Respectfully, you don't seem to understand what the argument has been about for the last 25 years. It has nothing to do with the ball fractions.
 
Respectfully, you don't seem to understand what the argument has been about for the last 25 years. It has nothing to do with the ball fractions.
No, it was about objectivity, and we in the CTE world use your objective fractions just like other people do. Why does it not count for our side of the argument?
 
No, it was about objectivity, and we in the CTE world use your objective fractions just like other people do. Why does it not count for our side of the argument?
Yes, the ball fractions you aim at are more or less objective but, again, that has nothing to do with the issue.
 
Yes, the ball fractions you aim at are more or less objective but, again, that has nothing to do with the issue.
Well anything beyond the objectivity thing in my view has just been a personal vendetta because some people don't like some other people so they set out to demean them. Big of you to admit that, though I'm sure that other fellow whom I no longer acknowledge would do so. Anything beyond that is personal attacks and has nothing to do with how and why many of us use CTE.
 
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